Actually, concerning the group of people working "at the front" might work
(as soon as it is not just about the support of the English Wikipedia), and
I would not count sending them to Wikimania as a monetary reward - assuming
this group undergoes regular rotations, and people who stop working leave
the group.
Cheers
Yaroslav
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Anders Wennersten <mail(a)anderswennersten.se
wrote:
> James, I think you yourself earlier today put forwards a possible first
> step in this direction.
>
> Support a group of people working "at the front" in neutralizing paid
> editing and other bad editing, by giving them possiblity to meet IRL, and
> why not at a session commited to this issue at WIkimania?
>
> Anders
>
>
>
> Den 2018-06-10 kl. 20:09, skrev James Heilman:
>
>> There is a fair bit of literature on intrinsic versus extrinsic
>> motivation.
>> Wikipedia has been mostly built on the first. Introducing greater
>> extrinsic
>> motivation may decrease intrinsic motivation. Doing so should thus be done
>> with great care, at a small scale that can be reversed, and be well
>> studied
>> to make sure the positive outweigh the negatives before being expanded.
>> Not
>> saying we should not look at this just that it may not result in the
>> benefits we hope far. With respect to burn out, emergency physicians are
>> generally paid well yet over half are experiencing burnout.
>>
https://wire.ama-assn.org/life-career/report-reveals-severit
>> y-burnout-specialty
>>
>> James
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt(a)gmail.com>
>
wrote:
>>
>> Hi David,
>>>
>>> Well, I did not reply because I disagree but in my experience having long
>>> arguments with people one disagrees with usually does not lead to
>>> agreement
>>> and is also very tiring. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, it is up to
>>> other readers to decide whose arguments are stronger. I really hate this
>>> "last word" game. If Natacha did not raise exactly the same
argument
>>> again,
>>> I would not even respond.
>>>
>>> Concerning people who do the job and do not feel appreciated - I
>>> absolutely
>>> agree with you that they should be rewarded. The appreciation can come
>>> from
>>> both the community and the WMF (and possibly sometimes from the external
>>> parties). I just disagree that this appreciation should be monetary.
>>> There
>>> are many ways to reward people and at the same to avoid introducing
>>> additional factors which I believe are harmful for the community.
>>>
>>> Concerning the premise that the existed model does not work anymore - I
>>> just disagree with the premise. Indeed, we have for example burnout of
>>> volunteers - I myself resigned the admin tools in the English Wikipedia
>>> in
>>> January, and stopped editing for a month in February, after the community
>>> failed to do anything about long-term harassment of a certain user
>>> directed
>>> at me - but this unfortunately happened before and will happen later.
>>> Specifically concerning the administrator issue, in the English
>>> Wikipedia I
>>> would still like to see any evidence that there is work which requires an
>>> admin attention and does not get it. All backlogs I am aware of originate
>>> not because administrators are lazy or there are too few of them, but
>>> because things are being asked are not submitted to a right place - such
>>> as
>>> for example someone asking to resolve a long-standing content dispute
>>> claiming it is vandalism.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Yaroslav
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:21 PM, David Cuenca Tudela
<dacuetu(a)gmail.com>
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Yaroslav,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you already made your point earlier, and I addressed it here [1]
>>>> and
>>>> also in the draft proposal to enable some volunteers to receive
>>>> donations
>>>> for their work [2]. The fact that you neither commented on my reply to
>>>>
>>> your
>>>
>>>> initial concern, nor on the proposal suggests me several possibilities.
>>>>
>>> The
>>>
>>>> first one is that you are not listening to me [3], because you are not
>>>> interacting with the proposals that could counter your fears, and you
>>>> are
>>>> not asking questions about them. The second one is that you don't
trust
>>>> your own capacity to listen to other people even when money is involved.
>>>> That could also be, because people with the biggest fear that others do
>>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>> listen to them are indeed not well equiped to listen to other people.
>>>> And
>>>> the third one could be that you are a victim of your own observations,
>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>> might be so used to see white swans (people being paid not listening) in
>>>> your life that the mere idea that black swans (people being paid who
>>>> listen) exist might seem inconceibable for you. It could also be that
>>>> you
>>>> find something wrong or that could be done better in my proposal or that
>>>> you have a better one, but since you haven't voiced your opinion, I
>>>> don't
>>>> know what.
>>>>
>>>> Concerning time and motivation, I consider that the people who are
>>>> contributing during their official working hours without explicit
>>>>
>>> permision
>>>
>>>> to do so are effectively STEALING resources from their employer. This is
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> course a partial view, because who owns actually the planetary
>>>> resources?
>>>> And who is there to say that it is not reasonable to invest some in
>>>> Wikimedia projects? Although I understand and I feel empathy for the
>>>> volunteers that Bodhisattwa mentions, I feel that what Aubrey said
>>>> before
>>>> holds true here: "You can't do good if there's no
"you" in the first
>>>> place". So if I ever meet people like that I will tell them: you are
not
>>>> doing any good here, because you are not putting yourself first.
>>>>
>>>> You say that "we indeed have a lot of people who shout loud, do
very
>>>> little, and get all kinds of credits for the work others have done".
But
>>>>
>>> we
>>>
>>>> also have many people who speak quietly, do very much, and get no credit
>>>> for what they are doing, and I do not see harm in recognizing their work
>>>> with donations, specially if they commit to improve themselves and to
>>>> listen. You don't explain why you don't like people who listen
and who
>>>>
>>> get
>>>
>>>> donations. Tbh, I do not like to have slaves in our movement, and I
>>>> think
>>>> we should free them from this kind of ungrateful slavery that many seem
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> be very happy about. At least slaves got some food, and a place to
>>>> sleep.
>>>>
>>>> And also listen to what Anders is saying, our model is not working any
>>>>
>>> more
>>>
>>>> (it was not sustainable to start with), we have reached the limit, and
>>>>
>>> now
>>>
>>>> it is time to reinvent ourselves. And as far as I know most of us here
>>>>
>>> are
>>>
>>>> "bottom", so we are building "bottom-up".
>>>>
>>>> @Aubrey: Thanks for your long answer :) I'll address it later on, to
>>>>
>>> write
>>>
>>>> this email took me at least 5h of coming to the keyboard and leaving to
>>>> manage the stress. I hope a reply to your email takes me a bit less...
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Micru
>>>>
>>>> [1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-
>>>>
>>> May/090365.html
>>>
>>>> [2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Micru/Draft_RFC
>>>> [3]
>>>>
https://www.csh.umn.edu/education/focus-areas/whole-
>>>> systems-healing/leadership/deep-listening
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>>
>>
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