There is no reason at all why all subjects that are permitted on the
English
Wikipedia should be permitted on another project. The notions of the
English
Wikipedia are not universal. Individual Pokemon articles et al are denied
on
the German Wikipedia and when individual people and or movies notable in
the
porn industry are not permitted on a particular project, I have no problem
with it at all.
I never said that every other Wikipedia needs to go by the same standards as
the English Wikipedia just that you can't censor a certain topic just
because you don't like it, especially when there's nowhere near community
consensus on the issue.
There are much more important issues to do with censorship on Wikipedia
projects. On some projects articles on the holocaust
are severely censored
because "it is not an accepted fact that it happened the way you have it
portrayed". This means that articles, even featured articles of the
English
Wikipedia associated with the second world war, cannot be literally
translated into these particular language versions of Wikipedia.
Then that's an even bigger problem that should be dealt with as well.
In many cultures the porn industry is not noted nor is porn permitted.
Insistence on having it included in Wikipedia is
against the laws and
morals
of such countries. I stand by my position that a comparison with the
Pokemon
characters is valid; a Wikipedia article does not have to allow the
inclusion of all of them.
Luckily for us, we have someone who is well aware of Israeli and Hebrew
culture and who knows that in this aspect (to be specific, me). Israeli
society is very similar to American or European society in that there are
the conservatives, but they are not the majority (and of course there are no
"porn laws"). Your argument might be valid for the Arabic Wikipedia (since
in that case, a ban may reflect Arabic society and morals), however a
country that has the playboy channel, et cetera, is obviously not the
country that you imagine. You seem to have a strong misconception of the
Hebrew culture.
The porn industry *is* notable in Israeli\Hebrew culture. Again, even the
ones arguing against the inclusion of pornographic articles in the Hebrew
Wikipedia ARE NOT saying that it isn't notable. I didn't say the Hebrew
Wikipedia needs to allow writing about Angel Cutexxx (fictional name) or any
other esoteric actor/actress just that articles on subjects that are clearly
notable cannot be speedy deleted. I'd have much less of a problem if someone
nominated the article for deletion as non-notable but this is not what is
happening, an article about a subject that has something to do with porn is
deleted... for no reason other than the fact that it has something to do
with porn (and nobody is claiming otherwise, or using non-notability as an
excuse).
Fine, you don't trust my judgment as obviously I have a POV here but someone
like Danny (and I know who Danny is and how busy he is) is someone who can
judge the situation in a better way since he is familiar with the culture,
speaks the language and is a trusted person.
PS I am not outraged, I think your premise is wrong.
If you look over your initial response, you may see why I perceived it that
way.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 3/8/07, Yonatan Horan <yonatanh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I strongly resent your reply. It seems like you have some similar issues
with Pokemon articles and that's the reason you lashed out the way you
did.
The reason I raised this issue on this mailing list is not because of
some
misplaced sense of outrage. The incident I was
talking about took place
two
months ago and the only reason I mentioned it was to fully disclose any
relevant information so other people don't come on here later on and say
that the only reason I'm bringing this issue to the attention of others
is
due to a vendetta against the Hebrew Wikipedia or
something of the sort.
This isn't about me trying to provoke anything. It's about a certain
group
of admins ignoring the fact that speedy deletion
of porn articles was
never
passed as a policy on hewp (and there is more than one sysop who can
attest
to this). As I said previously, I don't have any particular interest in
porn
and the fact that I've never edited an article that has anything to do
with
this topic on the english wikipedia supports that. Ron Jeremy and Jenna
Jameson are both notable enough to have their own article on any
wikipedia,
whether it be English, Hebrew or Malaysian. Attempts have been made to
resolve this issue "in-house" have failed, otherwise I wouldn't have
posted
it to this mailing list. I can't find the specific meta page at the
moment
but it isn't English Wikipedia only policy
that wikipedia isn't
censored.
If
the german wikipedia decided to delete all articles regarding Nazi
Germany,
etc. would you have reacted the same way? Or maybe if the Chinese
Wikipedia
decided to ban all articles on the issue of democracy? I hope you
rethink
your response and maybe try not to treat me as a
troll when I really am
not
one.
-Yonatan
On 3/8/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> When you think that people are interested in what can be perceived as
a
> provocation, you are wrong. What makes you
think that details about
porn
is
of sufficient relevance to warrant an article? You have to appreciate
that
> some Wikipedias are quite happy to even disallow articles about
Pokomon
characters. Now Pokomon creatures are much more educational. They are
the
staple diet of our youth.
Danny is a WMF employee, I believe he has more important things to do
than
to indulge your misplaced sense of outrage.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 3/8/07, Yonatan Horan <yonatanh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
It has recently (about two months ago) come to my attention that
articles
> on
> the Hebrew Wikipedia are speedy deleted. I translated the Jenna
Jameson
article
from the English Wikipedia and it was very quickly speedy
deleted
> and I was indefinitely blocked due to being a sockpuppet of some guy
(of
> course no checkuser request was done). By
the way, I don't
particularly
like
porn articles or anything of the sort; in fact, I don't believe I've
ever
> edited a porn article on the enwp which I'm very active on. After a
few
> > days
> > (during which I complained on Danny's enwp talk page and thus got
the
>
attention of a Hebrew Wikipedia admin and later spoke on the phone
with
> > another admin from hewp) I was unblocked. I'm guessing there have
> probably
> > been other people who just gave up after they were banned and didn't
> > return.
> >
> > The situation is basically that if a user who isn't well-known on
the
hewp
> (someone outside of a group of about 100 users) creates such an
article
> he
> > will probably be perm-banned and if anyone else does so, the article
> will
> > probably just be speedy deleted. No rule has been passed on the
Hebrew
>
Wikipedia regarding this and even if it had been passed, it would be
in
> violation of WMF (?) guidelines as Wikipedia
is not censored. Some
claim
> > that a rule has been passed but many admins disagree with this. The
> "vote"
> > was passed about two years ago and had 10-20 participants. In
addition
> to
> > this, the vote came at a time when the Hebrew Wikipedia was
repeatedly
> > vandalized by a certain user and many
of the voters supposedly for
the
> > banning of porn articles referred only
to this specific case (this
is
> > supported by their comments on the
page).
> >
> > By the way, just so nobody corrects me, on the Hebrew Wikipedia
*there
> are
> > votes* since consensus is hardly ever reached and the total needed
to
> pass
> > a
> > vote is a ridiculous 55%. Anyway, despite all the above, a few
admins
> have
> > said that they will speedy delete any porn articles created on the
> Hebrew
> > Wikipedia. Currently there are a few porn articles which are about
the
> > movie
> > Deep Throat and two other articles that I don't recall at the
moment.
This
> is a foundation issue because the situation right now is effectively
> censorship of articles that some people feel do not have a place on
the
> wikipedia. I know I will probably have those
who disagree with me be
> notified of this discussion at some point at which point the
slandering
> > will
> > begin and I will be called a "snitch" and possibly other more
colorful
> > terms
> > so I ask ahead of time for this discussion to remain civil. Although
I
>
hate
> to burden Danny, who probably has a lot of more important things to
do,
> he
> > is the only one who speaks both Hebrew and English and could take
care
of
this issue since he is obviously a person trusted
by most. Anyway I
think
I've written more than enough on an issue
that should be pretty
straightforward, that is, that wikipedia is not censored.
Thanks,
Yonatan
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