Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Philippines

26 Apr 2017

      Hi Kirill,
Nowhere in my last three e-mails did I imply that the process was arbitrary or unfair.  I have expressed in both my correspondence to this list AND to my private correspondence with the parties involved that it is your prerogative to determine our status or not.  That’s fine and dandy, and we’ve come to accept that.
But what I will NOT stand for is that you seem to imply that we should be thoroughly discredited for our mistakes.  I’m sorry, but that’s the signal I’m getting from the opposing side here: that I have no right to contest your narrative of what happened because you seem to be in the right and I, by virtue of having led Wikimedia Philippines to the ground — something that still weighs very heavily on my conscience — should just shut up and accept things as they are.
You talk of forgiveness and acceptance for these efforts.  But you seem to forget one thing that’s important here: compassion.  We felt we were on the right track with getting our house in order, and asked for more time to do so when the axe came to fall.  The situation isn’t as black and white as you paint it to be: it could’ve been that the revocation notice period wasn’t invoked because we were on the right track and that we could use more support in getting our affairs in order, but that wasn’t what happened here.  That’s fine with us now, but don’t you dare tell me that you respect our efforts now when we’ve been telling you this for months.
In any scenario, we will return to compliance.  I’ll make sure myself that we do, and there are people at WMPH who intend to make that happen.  But whether you will appreciate these efforts is the ball in your court, not ours.
Josh
...
On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:10 PM, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
Josh,
We are, as a movement, remarkably forgiving of things like missed
deadlines, incomplete reports, and other compliance issues that, in a
different environment, might be regarded with rather more severity.  This
is, I think, as it should be; we are, for the most part, volunteers --
often volunteers with little experience in managing formal reporting and
other elements of organizational compliance -- and we need to be flexible
and accommodate that if we are to successfully build a diverse and
inclusive movement.
At the same time, it's important to keep in mind that this forgiveness is
not -- and cannot be -- infinite.  Wikimedia Philippines had been directly
aware of its non-compliance -- both with regard to its obligations under
the Wikimedia chapter agreement and in other areas -- for more than two
years; indeed, as Ting has mentioned, addressing that non-compliance was on
the Affiliation Committee's agenda when you yourself were a member.  It is
disingenuous for you to imply that the formal suspension notice sent to you
in September was somehow unexpected or unfair; it was the unfortunate but
necessary culmination of a lengthy sequence of attempts to address the
situation, and not the unwarranted and arbitrary demand you've made it out
to be.
Nobody -- not the Affiliations Committee, not the Wikimedia Foundation, not
anyone else -- is disputing the fact that you made efforts to return to
compliance.  We acknowledge, and appreciate, these efforts; but, at the end
of the day, they were merely *efforts* -- as you yourself have admitted,
you ultimately failed to complete the actions that were required of you by
the deadline.  Unfortunately, since that deadline was mandated by the legal
notice requirements in your chapter agreement, rather than something
determined by the Affiliations Committee or the Wikimedia Foundation, there
was no further relief that we could give you.
Regards,
Kirill Lokshin
Chair, Affiliations Committee
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 7:17 AM, Josh Lim jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com wrote:
...
First of all, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm merely stating what is our
position: that is, that we've been dealing with our issues to the best of
our ability.  That said, I'm sorry, but I will not tolerate being told that
I am "misleading" the movement by telling people what we've done to get
ourselves out of this mess.  I wouldn't dare stake my own reputation on
misleading the movement, and for people to presume otherwise is appalling
for a movement that claims to work on a fundamental assumption of good
faith.
It's perfectly fine that we've come to opposing conclusions as to how
compliant we are, but the facts stand that we've worked our butts off to
return to compliance.  And we intend to do so.  If the Wikimedia
Foundation's ideal conclusion is that non-compliant affiliates ought to
disband entirely, then what good is the process in the first place if the
idea is to help organizations return to compliance?
I'll affirm that we've received a deadline notice.  I confirmed that in my
last e-mail to this list.  The Wikimedia Foundation did give a list of
things that we had to fix to return to compliance.  We ticked off a number
of items from that list, and have conceded in our internal communications
that other items can't be ticked off immediately owing to our capacity and
asked for more time to that effect.  The decision that was ultimately made
was for us to lose our status because not everything was met by the
deadline, and that was DESPITE everything that we've done at WMPH to meet
the deadline to begin with.
So no, I will NOT tolerate being told that we did nothing to return to
compliance, and by no less than the chair of the Affiliations Committee --
who otherwise I have a deep respect for -- in fact.  At the very least,
there has to be a concession that we tried.  I have not heard that from the
other side thus far, and I'm here to make sure that people know that we in
fact DID try to return to compliance.
Thanks,
Josh
(P.S.: For those asking, PhilWiki is not affiliated with WMPH.  PhilWiki
is a splinter group that was founded by a former member of Wikimedia
Philippines, and is largely based in the Bicol Region in southern Luzon.
WMPH, meanwhile, was based in Manila and had members nationwide.)
JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
Block I1, AB Political Science
Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines
jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com | +63 (977) 831-7582
Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harborhttps://joshlim.me
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 3:58:48 AM PDT, Ting Chen wing.philopp@gmx.de
wrote:Hello Gnangarra,
I joined AffCom in 2015, at that time the issue with Wikimedia
Philippines was already on the table. The AffCom and the WMF had tried
two years to get a settlement without a de-recognition with them.
Meanwhile it is 2017, I don't believe Josh could resolve the problem in
the last five hours which the entire Wikimedia Philippines was not able
to resolve in the past two years. As I said in my other post, I
personally don't think it wise to withhold information, especially
obviously the people who would be "protected" don't appreciate being
protected. But actually on the decision itself if there is something the
AffCom is to be blamed, it is that it took them two years of time to
make that hard decision. It was overdue, actually.
Greetings
Ting
Am 25.04.2017 um 11:43 schrieb Gnangarra:
...
In the original email from Josh he raises some points about still working
to address the issues in the five hours between his email and your
response
...
which have occurred between 9pm and 2am in San Francisco it appears that
it
...
could not be possible for the WMF to have considered and refuted what was
raised, especially to say
*"The WMF and the AffCom have decided not to disclose further
details."  *I
...
am concerned about how you can speak so categorically after just 5 hours
for the WMF when they arent even awake, especially given it normally
takes
...
a few days for any official statement from the WMF.
I have no problem with affiliates being deregistered but the process
should
...
be transparent and it should also be fair, no discussion or response to
what Josh raised publically is neither fair nor transparent
Josh response was that WMPH was accountable you could have least given
him
...
the chance to clarify the availability of the reporting requirements by
providing them
On 25 April 2017 at 17:33, Maor Malul maor_x@zoho.com wrote:
...
Hello,
The wikimedians from the Phillippines that attended the WMCON are /not
/members of WMPH but of PhilWiki Community [1], which is a completely
different Wikimedia affiliate.
If you read the original e-mail sent, the governance issues started to
appear in 2014, and the chapter was notified back then. More issues
accumulated over the time, and a solution was indeed searched for.
Please
...
...
elaborate on what "substantive discussion, consultation or
investigation"
...
...
means.
1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PhilWiki_Community
El 25/04/2017 a las 12:16 p.m., Gnangarra escribió:
...
It appears to me as this discussion has caused some confusion and it
should be clarified as I know that the Philippines had two members at
the
...
...
...
recent Wikimedia Conference in Berlin arent there reporting
requirements
...
...
...
attached to eligibility requirements. They are also part of the group
organising the ESEA conference in February 2018 along with a number of
other affiliates in the region. Those of us who have committed people,
time
...
...
...
and other resources need some clarity as well
While there appears to be some confusion here, Affcom and WMF should at
least take some time to clarify the issues especially given its
currently
...
...
...
2am in San Francisco and it was only 9pm when Joshes email was sent.
To me
...
...
...
it appears as if no substantive discussion, consultation or
investigation
...
...
...
of Joshes claims could have taken place to warrant such a harsh
response so
...
...
...
quickly.
On 25 April 2017 at 16:05, Maor Malul <maor_x@zoho.com mailto:
maor_x@zoho.com> wrote:
Hello Josh,

The WMF and the AffCom have decided not to disclose further
details of the very serious governance issues in order not to hurt
the movement and the reputation of the people involved. Please,
avoid misleading and adding drama to this situation -which is
already difficult, and damages the movement as a whole. WMPH was
given very specific recommendations of what do and what not to do,
but decided to go its own way.

M.

El 25/04/2017 a las 06:17 a.m., Josh Lim escribió:

    If you folks seriously think that we weren’t being
    “accountable”, then I have serious doubts about how this
    process will remain sustainable.

    I’m sorry, but this process has been exceedingly demotivating
    for everyone involved.  I’ve been trying to keep myself
    composed throughout the entire process, but at this point I
    simply cannot.

    I will gladly admit that we’ve made mistakes, us more than
    others.  Every organization does.  But I will not allow the
    work that I’ve dedicated over a decade of my life to be thrown
    out the window because we weren’t “accountable”.  To the best
    of our ability, we WERE accountable to our community and to
    the movement.  And I, frankly, feet that we were as
    accountable as we could’ve been.

    You may all want to know why I’ve been silent through this
    entire process.  It’s because I cannot, and I still cannot,
    process the grief this entire process has brought upon
    Wikimedia Philippines, and especially myself.  I will try to
    be optimistic about the future, as people have been telling me
    to do, but at this point in time, at least have some respect
    for the work that we’ve done over the last six years.  That’s
    really all I’m asking for at this point.

    Thanks,

    Josh

        On Apr 23, 2017, at 9:41 PM, James Heilman
        <jmh649@gmail.com <mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>
        <mailto:jmh649@gmail.com <mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>>>

wrote:
...
...
...
        I second Itzik's comments. We need some degree of
        accountability. Hopefully this will encourage groups in
        the Philippines to become more active again.

        James

        On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:14 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia
        Israel<itzik@wikimedia.org.il
        <mailto:itzik@wikimedia.org.il>
        <mailto:itzik@wikimedia.org.il

        <mailto:itzik@wikimedia.org.il>>>wrote:

            Thank you Maor for the update.

            We usually love to see our movement expend and welcome
            recognition of new
            organizations, but I strongly believe that we
        continuously need
            to check
            and evaluate our current organizations.

            Our brand, name and reputation are part of our core
        assets - and
            while it's
            not an easy step, I appreciate Affcom efforts not

only to
...
...
...
            recognize new
            ones but also to de-recognize organizations that are
        not longer
            active or
            non-compliance with our movement requirements.

            Few weeks ago in Berlin we had a first meeting to
        start discuses
            what is a
            "movement accountability" and how we evaluate
        organizations who
            operate
            outside of the FDC process and I believe Affcom have a
            significant part in
            it.

            *Regards,Itzik Edri*
            Chairperson, Wikimedia Israel
            +972-54-5878078
            <tel:%2B972-54-5878078> |http://www.wikimedia.org.il
            <http://www.wikimedia.org.il/>
            Imagine a world in which every single human being can
        freely
            share in the
            sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment!

            On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Maor Malul
        <maor_x@zoho.com <mailto:maor_x@zoho.com>
            <mailto:maor_x@zoho.com <mailto:maor_x@zoho.com>>>

wrote:
...
...
...
...

Dear all,

**
*Recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate - a chapter,
        thematic
            organization,

...
or user group - allows an independent group to
        officially use
            the Wikimedia

...
name to further the Wikimedia mission, with certain
        duties and

...
responsibilities.  While most Wikimedia affiliates
        adhere to
            the basic

...
compliance standards set forth in their agreements
        with the
            Wikimedia

...
Foundation, a protocol has been developed to
address the
...
...
...
            exceptional cases

...
when a Wikimedia affiliate does not meet minimum
        compliance
            standards and

...
their continued recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate
        presents a
            risk to the

...
Wikimedia movement.*

On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Philippines was
        notified of their

...
suspension as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long
        standing and
            serious

...
governance issues, as well as non-compliance with
        reporting
            requirements

...
which go as back as 2014, has been sent multiple
        warnings
            regarding them,

...
and on the date mentioned above,  was provided with
        an explicit
            list of

...
tasks and deadlines in order to return to compliance
        with their
            chapter

...
agreement. The chapter failed to complete these
        tasks by the
            deadline of

...
November 28, 2016, and was consequently notified
        that they
            would no longer

...
be recognized as a Wikimedia chapter after the
        termination of
            their Chapter

...
Agreement on March 1, 2017.  It is important to make
        clear that the

...
Affiliations Committee will continue to support
        other organized
            Wikimedia

...
communities and their activities in the Philippines.
If you have questions about what this means for the
        community
            members in

...
their region or language areas, we have put together
        a very
            basic FAQ,

...
which may be found at<https://meta.wikimedia.org/
        wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ>

https:/
...
...
...
...
        /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/
        <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_

affiliate
...
...
...
s/>
                          <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wi
ki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/
        <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_

affiliate
...
...
...
s/>>
...
Affiliate_derecognition_FAQ.*
--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü
        alijunakalirua jee
            wayuukanairua

...
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
        Ayatashi waya
            junain."

...
Maor Malul
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2
            |www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve>
        <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve/>

...
<http://wikimedia.org.ve <http://wikimedia.org.ve/
...
...
Member, Wikimedia Israel |www.wikimedia.org.il
        <http://www.wikimedia.org.il>
            <http://www.wikimedia.org.il/><

http://wikimedia.org.il
...
...
...
            <http://wikimedia.org.il/>>

...
Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations
Committee
...
...
...
...
Phone:+972-52-4869915 tel:%2B972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines
            at:https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
        <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik>

...
i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
            andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
        <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
            <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
        <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>>

...
New messages to:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:to%3AWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
            <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>

...
                      Unsubscribe:https://lists.wik

imedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
            <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
...
...
                      <https://lists.wikimedia.org/

mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
            <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
...
...
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
            <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=un
...
subscribe>
                _______________________________________________
                Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines
                          at:https://meta.wikimedia.
org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
            <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
...
...
                      <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w

iki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
            <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
...
andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
            http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
                <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
            https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
                New messages to:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
            mailto:to%3AWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
                <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
            mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
                          Unsubscribe:https://lists.wik
imedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
            <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
...
...
                      <https://lists.wikimedia.org/

mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
            <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
...
            <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
            <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org

?subject=un
...
subscribe>
        --
        James Heilman
        MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

        The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
        _______________________________________________
        Affiliates mailing list
        Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org>
        <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org
        <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org>>
        https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
        <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates>

    *JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM*
    President, Wikimedia Philippines

    j <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com
    <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com>>osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph
    <mailto:osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph>
    <mailto:osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph
    <mailto:osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph>> | +63 (977) 831-7582
    Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
    http://www.wikimedia.org.ph <http://www.wikimedia.org.ph/>

    _______________________________________________
    Affiliates mailing list
    Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org
    <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org>
    https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
    <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates>

--    "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
wayuukanairua junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
Ayatashi waya junain."
Maor Malul
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve>
<http://wikimedia.org.ve>
Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il
<http://www.wikimedia.org.il> <http://wikimedia.org.il>
Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
<mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>?subject=

unsubscribe>
...
...
...
--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

Affiliates mailing list
Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
Maor Malul
Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
www.wikimedia.org.ve
...
...
http://wikimedia.org.ve
Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il <
http://wikimedia.org.il%3E
...
...
Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
Phone: +972-52-4869915
Twitter: @maor_x
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
...
...
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
Bachelor of Arts in Political Science
Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines
jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com | +63 (977) 831-7582
Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
http://joshlim.me http://joshlim.me/

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Affiliates] Chapter De-Recognition: Wikimedia Philippines