Thank you Kirill that is a lot clearer and answers sufficiently most of my
concerns.
To me this process and these announcements(Philippines and Hong Kong) have
been distasteful in the harshness of the language being used, while such
formal language is necessary and appropriate for the official legal notice
to the individual affiliate. When announcing it to the wider community some
compassion even thanks could be expressed acknowledging the efforts of the
community and its members. Such consideration shows that those wielding
power do so out of necessity, not just because they can.
Such harsh announcement also reflect negatively on the wider regional
community and do lasting harm the efforts of those who are still there
trying to continue to support our aims and projects.
I look at the current processes around affiliates thats made it a longer
journey for any group to become a chapter, but once there it appears rather
to not take that way in reverse. Maybe the process could be reconfigured
to enable a smoother transition in either direction, and wouldnt such a
transition be of greater benefit to the movement long term. It could have
more been more productive less dramatic to have rebadged WMPH as a user
group, with a name change to a more regional identity.
On 25 April 2017 at 21:10, Kirill Lokshin <kirill.lokshin(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Josh,
We are, as a movement, remarkably forgiving of things like missed
deadlines, incomplete reports, and other compliance issues that, in a
different environment, might be regarded with rather more severity. This
is, I think, as it should be; we are, for the most part, volunteers --
often volunteers with little experience in managing formal reporting and
other elements of organizational compliance -- and we need to be flexible
and accommodate that if we are to successfully build a diverse and
inclusive movement.
At the same time, it's important to keep in mind that this forgiveness is
not -- and cannot be -- infinite. Wikimedia Philippines had been directly
aware of its non-compliance -- both with regard to its obligations under
the Wikimedia chapter agreement and in other areas -- for more than two
years; indeed, as Ting has mentioned, addressing that non-compliance was on
the Affiliation Committee's agenda when you yourself were a member. It is
disingenuous for you to imply that the formal suspension notice sent to you
in September was somehow unexpected or unfair; it was the unfortunate but
necessary culmination of a lengthy sequence of attempts to address the
situation, and not the unwarranted and arbitrary demand you've made it out
to be.
Nobody -- not the Affiliations Committee, not the Wikimedia Foundation, not
anyone else -- is disputing the fact that you made efforts to return to
compliance. We acknowledge, and appreciate, these efforts; but, at the end
of the day, they were merely *efforts* -- as you yourself have admitted,
you ultimately failed to complete the actions that were required of you by
the deadline. Unfortunately, since that deadline was mandated by the legal
notice requirements in your chapter agreement, rather than something
determined by the Affiliations Committee or the Wikimedia Foundation, there
was no further relief that we could give you.
Regards,
Kirill Lokshin
Chair, Affiliations Committee
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 7:17 AM, Josh Lim <jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
First of all, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm
merely stating what is our
position: that is, that we've been dealing with our issues to the best of
our ability. That said, I'm sorry, but I will not tolerate being told
that
I am "misleading" the movement by
telling people what we've done to get
ourselves out of this mess. I wouldn't dare stake my own reputation on
misleading the movement, and for people to presume otherwise is appalling
for a movement that claims to work on a fundamental assumption of good
faith.
It's perfectly fine that we've come to opposing conclusions as to how
compliant we are, but the facts stand that we've worked our butts off to
return to compliance. And we intend to do so. If the Wikimedia
Foundation's ideal conclusion is that non-compliant affiliates ought to
disband entirely, then what good is the process in the first place if the
idea is to help organizations return to compliance?
I'll affirm that we've received a deadline notice. I confirmed that in
my
last e-mail to this list. The Wikimedia
Foundation did give a list of
things that we had to fix to return to compliance. We ticked off a
number
of items from that list, and have conceded in our
internal communications
that other items can't be ticked off immediately owing to our capacity
and
asked for more time to that effect. The decision
that was ultimately
made
was for us to lose our status because not
everything was met by the
deadline, and that was DESPITE everything that we've done at WMPH to meet
the deadline to begin with.
So no, I will NOT tolerate being told that we did nothing to return to
compliance, and by no less than the chair of the Affiliations Committee
--
who otherwise I have a deep respect for -- in
fact. At the very least,
there has to be a concession that we tried. I have not heard that from
the
other side thus far, and I'm here to make
sure that people know that we
in
fact DID try to return to compliance.
Thanks,
Josh
(P.S.: For those asking, PhilWiki is not affiliated with WMPH. PhilWiki
is a splinter group that was founded by a former member of Wikimedia
Philippines, and is largely based in the Bicol Region in southern Luzon.
WMPH, meanwhile, was based in Manila and had members nationwide.)
JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
Block I1, AB Political Science
Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines
jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com | +63 (977) 831-7582
Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harborhttps://joshlim.me
On Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 3:58:48 AM PDT, Ting Chen <
wing.philopp(a)gmx.de>
wrote:Hello Gnangarra,
I joined AffCom in 2015, at that time the issue with Wikimedia
Philippines was already on the table. The AffCom and the WMF had tried
two years to get a settlement without a de-recognition with them.
Meanwhile it is 2017, I don't believe Josh could resolve the problem in
the last five hours which the entire Wikimedia Philippines was not able
to resolve in the past two years. As I said in my other post, I
personally don't think it wise to withhold information, especially
obviously the people who would be "protected" don't appreciate being
protected. But actually on the decision itself if there is something the
AffCom is to be blamed, it is that it took them two years of time to
make that hard decision. It was overdue, actually.
Greetings
Ting
Am 25.04.2017 um 11:43 schrieb Gnangarra:
> In the original email from Josh he raises some points about still
working
to
address the issues in the five hours between his email and your
response
> which have occurred between 9pm and 2am in San Francisco it appears
that
it
> could not be possible for the WMF to have considered and refuted what
was
raised,
especially to say
*"The WMF and the AffCom have decided not to disclose further
details."
*I
> am concerned about how you can speak so categorically after just 5
hours
for the
WMF when they arent even awake, especially given it normally
takes
a few days for any official statement from the
WMF.
I have no problem with affiliates being deregistered but the process
should
be transparent and it should also be fair, no
discussion or response to
what Josh raised publically is neither fair nor transparent
Josh response was that WMPH was accountable you could have least given
him
the chance to clarify the availability of the
reporting requirements by
providing them
On 25 April 2017 at 17:33, Maor Malul <maor_x(a)zoho.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The wikimedians from the Phillippines that attended the WMCON are /not
> /members of WMPH but of PhilWiki Community [1], which is a completely
> different Wikimedia affiliate.
>
> If you read the original e-mail sent, the governance issues started to
> appear in 2014, and the chapter was notified back then. More issues
> accumulated over the time, and a solution was indeed searched for.
Please
> elaborate on what "substantive
discussion, consultation or
investigation"
> means.
>
>
> 1:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PhilWiki_Community
>
>
> El 25/04/2017 a las 12:16 p.m., Gnangarra escribió:
>
>> It appears to me as this discussion has caused some confusion and it
>> should be clarified as I know that the Philippines had two members at
the
>> recent Wikimedia Conference in Berlin
arent there reporting
requirements
>>> attached to eligibility requirements. They are also part of the group
>>> organising the ESEA conference in February 2018 along with a number
of
>>> other affiliates in the region.
Those of us who have committed
people,
time
>>> and other resources need some clarity as well
>>>
>>> While there appears to be some confusion here, Affcom and WMF should
at
>>
least take some time to clarify the issues especially given its
currently
>> 2am in San Francisco and it was only 9pm
when Joshes email was sent.
To me
>> it appears as if no substantive
discussion, consultation or
investigation
>> of Joshes claims could have taken place
to warrant such a harsh
response so
>>> quickly.
>>>
>>> On 25 April 2017 at 16:05, Maor Malul <maor_x(a)zoho.com <mailto:
>>> maor_x(a)zoho.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Josh,
>>>
>>> The WMF and the AffCom have decided not to disclose further
>>> details of the very serious governance issues in order not to
hurt
>>> the movement and the reputation
of the people involved. Please,
>>> avoid misleading and adding drama to this situation -which is
>>> already difficult, and damages the movement as a whole. WMPH was
>>> given very specific recommendations of what do and what not to
do,
>>> but decided to go its own way.
>>>
>>> M.
>>>
>>>
>>> El 25/04/2017 a las 06:17 a.m., Josh Lim escribió:
>>>
>>> If you folks seriously think that we weren’t being
>>> “accountable”, then I have serious doubts about how this
>>> process will remain sustainable.
>>>
>>> I’m sorry, but this process has been exceedingly
demotivating
>>> for everyone involved.
I’ve been trying to keep myself
>>> composed throughout the entire process, but at this point I
>>> simply cannot.
>>>
>>> I will gladly admit that we’ve made mistakes, us more than
>>> others. Every organization does. But I will not allow the
>>> work that I’ve dedicated over a decade of my life to be
thrown
>>> out the window because we
weren’t “accountable”. To the
best
>>> of our ability, we WERE
accountable to our community and to
>>> the movement. And I, frankly, feet that we were as
>>> accountable as we could’ve been.
>>>
>>> You may all want to know why I’ve been silent through this
>>> entire process. It’s because I cannot, and I still cannot,
>>> process the grief this entire process has brought upon
>>> Wikimedia Philippines, and especially myself. I will try to
>>> be optimistic about the future, as people have been telling
me
>>> to do, but at this point in
time, at least have some respect
>>> for the work that we’ve done over the last six years.
That’s
>>
really all I’m asking for at this point.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Josh
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2017, at 9:41 PM, James Heilman
>> <jmh649(a)gmail.com <mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:jmh649@gmail.com <mailto:jmh649@gmail.com>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>> I second Itzik's comments. We need some degree of
>>> accountability. Hopefully this will encourage groups in
>>> the Philippines to become more active again.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:14 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia
>>> Israel<itzik(a)wikimedia.org.il
>>> <mailto:itzik@wikimedia.org.il>
>>> <mailto:itzik@wikimedia.org.il
>>>
>>> <mailto:itzik@wikimedia.org.il>>>wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Maor for the update.
>>>
>>> We usually love to see our movement expend and
welcome
>>
recognition of new
>> organizations, but I strongly believe that we
>> continuously need
>> to check
>> and evaluate our current organizations.
>>
>> Our brand, name and reputation are part of our core
>> assets - and
>> while it's
>> not an easy step, I appreciate Affcom efforts not
only
to
>>> recognize new
>>> ones but also to de-recognize organizations that are
>>> not longer
>>> active or
>>> non-compliance with our movement requirements.
>>>
>>> Few weeks ago in Berlin we had a first meeting to
>>> start discuses
>>> what is a
>>> "movement accountability" and how we evaluate
>>> organizations who
>>> operate
>>> outside of the FDC process and I believe Affcom
have
a
>>> significant part
in
>>> it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Regards,Itzik Edri*
>>> Chairperson, Wikimedia Israel
>>> +972-54-5878078
>>> <tel:%2B972-54-5878078> |
http://www.wikimedia.org.il
>>>
<http://www.wikimedia.org.il/>
>>> Imagine a world in which every single human being
can
>>
freely
>> share in the
>> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment!
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Maor Malul
>> <maor_x(a)zoho.com <mailto:maor_x@zoho.com>
>> <mailto:maor_x@zoho.com
<mailto:maor_x@zoho.com>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > Dear all,
>>> >
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > **
>>> >
>>> > *Recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate - a chapter,
>>> thematic
>>> organization,
>>> > or user group - allows an independent group to
>>> officially use
>>> the Wikimedia
>>> > name to further the Wikimedia mission, with
certain
>>
duties and
>> > responsibilities. While most Wikimedia affiliates
>> adhere to
>> the basic
>> > compliance standards set forth in their agreements
>> with the
>> Wikimedia
>> > Foundation, a protocol has been developed to
address
the
>>> exceptional cases
>>> > when a Wikimedia affiliate does not meet minimum
>>> compliance
>>> standards and
>>> > their continued recognition as a Wikimedia
affiliate
>>> presents a
>>> risk to the
>>> > Wikimedia movement.*
>>> >
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> > On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Philippines was
>>> notified of their
>>> > suspension as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long
>>> standing and
>>> serious
>>> > governance issues, as well as non-compliance with
>>> reporting
>>> requirements
>>> > which go as back as 2014, has been sent multiple
>>> warnings
>>> regarding them,
>>> > and on the date mentioned above, was provided
with
>>> an explicit
>>> list of
>>> > tasks and deadlines in order to return to
compliance
>>> with their
>>> chapter
>>> > agreement. The chapter failed to complete these
>>> tasks by the
>>> deadline of
>>> > November 28, 2016, and was consequently notified
>>> that they
>>> would no longer
>>> > be recognized as a Wikimedia chapter after the
>>> termination of
>>> their Chapter
>>> > Agreement on March 1, 2017. It is important to
make
>>> clear that the
>>> > Affiliations Committee will continue to support
>>> other organized
>>> Wikimedia
>>> > communities and their activities in the
Philippines.
>>> >
>>> > If you have questions about what this means for
the
>>> community
>>> members in
>>> > their region or language areas, we have put
together
>>
a very
>> basic FAQ,
>> > which may be found
at<https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> >
>> wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ>
https:/
>> >
>> /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/
>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
affiliate
>> s/>
>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wi
>> ki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/
>>
>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
affiliate
>>> s/>>
>>> > Affiliate_derecognition_FAQ.*
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü
>>> alijunakalirua jee
>>> wayuukanairua
>>> > junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
>>> Ayatashi waya
>>> junain."
>>> > Maor Malul
>>> > Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2
>>> |www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve>
>>> <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve/>
>>> > <http://wikimedia.org.ve <
http://wikimedia.org.ve/
>
>> > Member, Wikimedia Israel |www.wikimedia.org.il
>> <http://www.wikimedia.org.il>
>> <http://www.wikimedia.org.il/><
http://wikimedia.org.il
>>
<http://wikimedia.org.il/>>
>> > Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations
Committee
>>> > Phone:+972-52-4869915 <tel:%2B972-52-4869915>
>>> > Twitter: @maor_x
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines
>>>
at:https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik>
>>> > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>
andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>>
>>> > New messages to:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> <mailto:to%3AWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
>>> >
>>> Unsubscribe:https://lists.wik
>>>
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>
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>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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>
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>>> iki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>
>>>
andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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>>> New messages to:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
>>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/
>>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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>>,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>?subject=un
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Heilman
>>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Affiliates mailing list
>>> Affiliates(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>> <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org>>
>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
>>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/affiliates>
>>
>>
>> *JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM*
>> President, Wikimedia Philippines
>>
>> j <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com>>osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph
>> <mailto:osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph>
>> <mailto:osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph
>> <mailto:osh.lim@wikimedia.org.ph>> | +63 (977) 831-7582
>> Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
>>
http://www.wikimedia.org.ph <http://www.wikimedia.org.ph/>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Affiliates mailing list
>> Affiliates(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> <mailto:Affiliates@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
>> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates>
>>
>>
>> -- "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>> wayuukanairua junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
>> Ayatashi waya junain."
>> Maor Malul
>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>
www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve>
>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>> Member, Wikimedia Israel |
www.wikimedia.org.il
>> <http://www.wikimedia.org.il> <http://wikimedia.org.il>
>> Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>> Twitter: @maor_x
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>
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>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GN.
>>> President Wikimedia Australia
>>> WMAU:
http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>>> Photo Gallery:
http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Affiliates mailing list
>>> Affiliates(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
>>>
>> --
>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
wayuukanairua
>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale
etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
junain."
> Maor
Malul
> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
www.wikimedia.org.ve
> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> Member, Wikimedia Israel |
www.wikimedia.org.il <
>> Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>> Twitter: @maor_x
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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