Birgitte SB wrote:
Nod. I
understand what you say.
Unfortunately, absolutely *any* editor may be
attacked anytime and have
his/her reputation attacked. If you doubt that,
check out the recent
emails between David Gerard, Aurevilly and myself
:-(
Now, I must also say that it is quite unconfortable
to do checkuser on a
project you absolutely do not know and in a language
you do not know either.
. . .
Requests may be done by *good* editors and by
*bad*
editors. Stewards
have no way to know. I am not sure it is good.
ant (who heard you were a good person :-))
I realize there is fine line here. And I am confident
that no one will take the accusations against me
seriously. However I was very cautious about things,
thinking of how everything would look once all the
evidence was deleted. All history of any
contributions made by the editor at Wikisource have of
course disappeared. And especially as the person was
nuked on another project which destroyed most of the
history there, which I could have used to back up my
actions. I kept records of what I could and trusted
that people would speak up for me if it came that (as
Brad has done).
Hi
However, in general the people who are trusted from a
Foundation perspective take little interest in the
running of the smaller projects.
I would not say this at all. Trust does not come from being a
participant in a *big* project, or on a major language. Trust comes from
the frequent interaction we have with some editors and from sharing
certain tasks, which allow to get to know each other.
How does that happen ?
Well, perhaps you start writing on this mailing list and I'll notice
what you say sounds wise and interesting and willing to build something.
And perhaps others will tell me they feel the same. And perhaps we'll
exchange a couple of emails on minor issues (such as a checkuser) and I
will find you a cool person. Then, perhaps I will go look at your page
to see who you are. I will notice something which suggest you could be
interested in a certain project, then I'll invite you to join for that
task and you will agree. And we'll have fun doing that and do a good
work. Repeat that a bunch of times, and that will be it.
It is totally unrelated to the size or the nature of your favorite
project :-)
Do you have kids ?
At the same time,
those that keep these projects running smoothly are
told they are not trusted enough to have the tools
they need. And then people with access, such as
yourself, feel uncomfortable even using the tools to
pass info on. And I understand why you feel that way
of course. Because I feel uncomfortable blocking
someone indefinitely without being 100% sure he was
the same person who had caused problems before. It is
not just that I worry about what others may accuse me
of, but I take the responsibility seriously. In the
end it is my action, whoever else advised me on it.
But am convinced the risk of legal exposure is a great
enough problem that I can overcome the discomfort.
nod.
This is really a larger and mor far reaching problem.
No one at Wikisource subscribed to this list until
someone told us that it had been decided here that our
copyright policy was not restrictive enough. That is
when a few of the regular editors signed up. I
imagine there are a great number of active projects
out there running their own little worlds, divested
from the Foundation in all but name.
nod.
Recently, some chinese editors also joined.
We need a common ground where to meet each others.
I believe there
are other problems we haven't yet imagined already
out
there. Things need to be handled differently.
Perhaps new projects are approved to easily.
Waitaminutehere. The last approved project... was...wikinews. It was
quite a while ago !
It might
be a good idea to assign official liaisons. Or maybe
there should be a mentorship program for bureaucrats.
Perhaps the Foundation should randomly run a detailed
assesment of the smaller but active projects. Or
maybe there should be a recruitment of the people who
run these projects to become more active within the
Foundation. I do not know the answer, but I can see
symptoms that this is a larger problem than stewards
ignoring requests for Checkuser.
All good ideas.
But but but, we tried the official liaisons (they were called
ambassadors). It failed.
Recruitement of people : yes indeed. But this can only happen when we
start knowing each other a little bit more.
I absolutely agree with you we have a major problem of communication.
Actually, this has ALWAYS been the case. Just differently.
When I joined, the english wp was on one version of the software and all
others on an older version. There was no meta. There was no common
mailing list (later, non english were parked on one list). Actually, the
miscommunication was SO bad that a language even forked and is still
suffering today of that fork.
Last year, I tried to work to create Quarto with others interested in
communication, such as Sj. It was a place where at least description of
projects state could be made. By lack of human help, I gave up.
Elian also maintained with Aphaia's help a project-state on meta. I
think it is dead now.
There are now several wikizines in different languages (plus Walter's
global one), I hope they communicate a bit between themselves. But each
essentially give news of a specific project. Not cross project
If you have ideas, please, by all means, provide them. Or better,
IMPLEMENT them.
I will say this, projects like Wikisource are very
different from Wikipedia. They are also very
different from Wikipedia was when it as small as
Wikisource is now. What worked then and now for WP
will not work for Wikisource or Wikibooks. I can see
this just from that expectations there are of how X
voters should be gotten from X active editors. When
people were active at Wikipedia years ago, they joined
the community. Now these editors are either fed up
with community from WP experiences, or else they
devote all their "community" time to WP, but they
still come edit regularly on places like Wikisource.
I see many names I recognize from WP community
discussions in the Recent Changes at Wikisource. But
they never join in on any WS general disscussions. I
am not saying this is either good or bad; it is just
makes a different animal entirely.
Which strongly suggest me that we should rather try to have
inter-projects checkusers.
Let me see... Karynn for example, is apparently a motivated checkuser,
with the full tech knowledge necessary. She may not be an arbitrator, I
think she is trusted as a checkuser. Why not having her checkuser on
several english speaking projects ?
Would not it be wiser than some inactive editors becoming checkuser on
wikibooks just because *there ought to be* a checkuser ? If the user has
done less than 50 edits in the past 3 months, it makes no sense that he
becomes checkuser really.
In any cases, I fully understand the different nature of editorship.
Also as Robert
Horning said, we attract vandals of a sophisticaton
WP
never even imagined when there were only 12
administrators. I feel that if projects like
Wikisource and Wikibooks are continually regarded by
the Foundation the way they are now, they will become
like difficult step-childrem.
How are they regarded ?
As far as I am concerned, Wikibooks at least has a life on its own. It
knows very well how to keep joke books, remove Wikiversity or wikimania
proceedings. And it has a few vocal representatives on its list :-)
Admittedly, I know much less of Wikisource. But you are here now, no ? :-)
I do not believe anyone
wants that to happen. I certainly don't and that
is
why I encouraging for something to change. There must
be more intergration and trust on all levels. And I
mean trust that our work will be supported as well as
trust that we act responsibly in the running our
projects.
Speaking of trust. One suggestion made last summer was that those given
checkuser access should provide their real names. What is your opinion
about this ?
If the Foundation trusts those with checkusers to use it according to
policy, would checkusers trust the Foundation enough to provide their
real names ?
Although this is old news, I will say this also
because it regards trust running the other way. It
was very hard on us to have to delete all the UN
resolutions and Crown legislation. We truly believed
(trusted) our copyright policy was supported. And
even now we have never gotten a straight answer on the
thinking behind the copyrights. Any disscussion I
read about it, leaves me newly aware of the lack of
understanding people have about the basics of
Wikisource. Or else I get the impression that
everyone from the Foundation is being intentionally
vague.
No. It is worse than this...
The Foundation board did not discuss this issue, even less took a
decision about copyrights on wikisource. I presume it came from a
discussion between Jimbo and legal bodies. I am intentionally vague on
your UN resolutions and Crown legislation deletions because I am not
aware of it.
Sorry.
So we are being very cautious, and I worry
every day someone will come down and say we have get
rid of X also. And that is the worst part of being and
admin, when the rules suddenly change on you and you
are left to enforce them on very unhappy people. And
on top of it all I do not understand why they changed
or even if my current interpration of the rules is
correct.
This is a problem. Have you talked to JImbo for clarification ? You are
lucky, you share a language... Imagine japanese editors...
Things like this can only happen so many
times before everyone becomes too gun-shy to keep
contributing, or else decides to just ignore the rules
they feel are arbitrary. Either of those would be a
bad thing. Sorry this was so long.
I am a proponent of ignore all rules...
Cheers and thanks for the long email.
ant
PS : do you like mint tea ?
Birgitte SB
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