WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country claim the Nazis was
the good guys, then they are simply wrong.
Yes there are a lot of projects where information diverge, but usually that
is because someone added material that somehow seems more appropriate for
readers in that specific language. Although sometimes the content is really
wrong, and that happen on all projects.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
wrote:
> Hoi,
> I have been involved in a translation project with professional translators
> translating featured articles of the English Wikipedia. The choice for
> featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not
> be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles were
> not accepted.. one of them was about World War II.
>
> I have also toyed with the idea of content that is not available in the
> language of a Wikipedia (including English). Translation is one solution an
> other solution is generating basic information from the data available at
> Wikidata. The benefit is not only to our readers; they will at least be
> informed up to a point and another benefit will be the quality of the
> Wikipedia involved. One problem that will be fixed is the one of false
> friends, when red links are linked to Wikidata, the information provided
> will always be implicitly correct. Another possibility is to provide the
> text of a sister Wikipedia.
>
> We can do a better job by providing the sum of all knowledge that is
> available to us.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 25 February 2018 at 15:16, John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com
wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> > There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
> > but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
> > Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
> > articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they
> are
> > from a big western language or a minority language.
> >
> > The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles
> about
> > the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
> > minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki(a)gmail.com
wrote:
> >
> > > Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the
> contents
> > in
> > > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form
> > of
> > > "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural
> appropriation.
> > >
> > > NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and
"Wikipedian"
> sense: I
> > > mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
> > > flourishing Wikipedia communities.
> > >
> > > Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my
> opinion,
> > > but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the
"bottom"
> being
> > > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a
minority
> > > non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
> > >
> > > This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
> > > associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
> > > backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
> > > Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
> > wrote,
> > > wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
> > scope:
> > > Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
> > > language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
> > different
> > > languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> > > knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take
> precedence
> > > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger"
language.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
> > >
> > > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation.
> > Not
> > > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already
> expressed
> > > in a
> > > > > better way by others:
> > > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> > verification
> > > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > > themselves;
> > > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects
cultural
> > > > identity
> > > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring
them
> > to a
> > > > > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of
"weaker" adjective only
> > > focuses
> > > > > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > > > > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
> > cultural
> > > > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > > Wikipedians.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to
> digitalise
> > > > texts
> > > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> > vocabularies
> > > > > (wiktionary).
> > > > >
> > > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native
speaker
> of
> > > > > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language
to
> any
> > > of
> > > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the
biography of
> > > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of
books
> > about
> > > > him
> > > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > > "literary"
> > > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no
"encaustic
> > painting"
> > > > in
> > > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent
one.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than
> create,
> > > > > knowledge.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vito
> > > > >
> > > > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad
<jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it
was
> > > merely a
> > > > > > statement about my present experience about translators in
> general.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in
a
> > > > specialized
> > > > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this
> community
> > > some
> > > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated
the
> > > > > remaining
> > > > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many
times
> and
> > > > there
> > > > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply
a
> game
> > of
> > > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must
have a
> > > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about
public
> > > health
> > > > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small
language
> group,
> > > but
> > > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But
then you
> > > find
> > > > > > a retired
> > > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman
<jmh649(a)gmail.com
> >
> > >
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a
> translator
> > > > into a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key
to have
> > > > > > involvement
> > > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the
efforts.
> Of
> > > the
> > > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested
not to be
> > > > > involved /
> > > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > >
wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for
translations
> > from
> > > > > small
> > > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that
is a lot
> more
> > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language
projects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe
Béland <
> > > > > > > > jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca
> > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should
come from the
> > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of
articles. If not,
> in
> > my
> > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling
Blad <
> > > > jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining
points are somewhat
> > less
> > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of
articles is a bad
> > idea,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for
themselves.
> > Articles
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical
or medical, ie
> > > vertical
> > > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle
those will be
> > pretty
> > > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can
turn a teanslator
> > into
> > > a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor
into a
> translator.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John
Erling Blad <
> > > > > > jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality
content and thus
> all
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before
being proposed for
> > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on
"quality" can easily kill
> > the
> > > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content
Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> > made
> > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around
word documents. Would
> love
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having
it support specific
> > lists
> > > of
> > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for
translation by certain groups.
> > Would
> > > > also
> > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics
for these types of
> > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention
ContentTranslation, but it should be
> > pretty
> > > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators
mostly associated with
> > our
> > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders.
One issue we found was
> that
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators
such as French, Spanish,
> > and
> > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some
content on many of the
> > topics
> > > in
> > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration
which needs an expert
> > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have
little content there are
> > often
> > > > few
> > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles
as an example, as
> the
> > > > chance
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per
word" the problem is
> this
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances
to make sure people
> are
> > > > taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using
Google translate for
> the
> > 70
> > > > or
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We
often had translations
> > > > undergo
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at
TWB have to pass certain
> > > tests
> > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote
"verified good
> > translators".
> > > It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor
contributed other articles at
> > the
> > > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM,
James Heilman <
> > > > > jmh649(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during
the medical translation
> > > > project
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high
quality content and thus
> all
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before
being proposed for
> > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want
"less" content than is
> > present
> > > on
> > > > > EN
> > > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and
suggesting for translation
> > the
> > > > > leads
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content
Translation" tool developed by the WMF
> > > made
> > > > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around
word documents. Would
> love
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having
it support specific
> > lists
> > > of
> > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for
translation by certain groups.
> > Would
> > > > also
> > > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics
for these types of
> > projects.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer
translators mostly associated
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders.
One issue we found was
> that
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators
such as French, Spanish,
> > and
> > > > > > Italian
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > >> often already at least some
content on many of the
> > topics
> > > in
> > > > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration
which needs an expert
> > > > > Wikipedia.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> languages in which we have
little content there are
> > often
> > > > few
> > > > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying
per word" the problem is
> this
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances
to make sure people
> are
> > > > taking
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using
Google translate for
> the
> > 70
> > > > or
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We
often had translations
> > > > undergo
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at
TWB have to pass certain
> > > tests
> > > > to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for
the translation project
> > for a
> > > > > > couple
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not
want to become
> > Wikipedians
> > > or
> > > > > > learn
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The
coordinator created account like
> > > > > TransSW001
> > > > > > > > (one
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded
the article to be
> > translated
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the
volunteer translator
> the
> > > > user
> > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There
are currently just over
> > 1,000
> > > > > leads
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> articles that have been
improved and are ready for
> > > > > translation.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440
medications that are on
> the
> > > WHO
> > > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in
some 100 languages. The
> > > > efforts
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works
translated and integrated
> > > into
> > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has
unfortunately moved on
> > to
> > > > his
> > > > > > real
> > > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at
a slower pace than
> > before.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon
Subas Chandra Rout has
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all
1,000 leads into Odia a
> > > > > language
> > > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern
India. The amazing thing
> is
> > > > that
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first
and only information
> > online
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim
to work in this
> language.
> > > Our
> > > > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in
Taipai continue to
> > > translate
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > > >> There the students translate
and than their
> translations
> > > are
> > > > > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > >> their profs before being
posted. They translate in
> > groups
> > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re
invigorate the project
> :-)
> > > > > > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51
AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going
to be fun! =D
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy
Wikipedia-projects has
> more
> > > > than
> > > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred
or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of
articles were opened for paid
> > > > > > translators?
> > > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base
sets. We have both the
> > > thousand
> > > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles
every Wikipedia should have"[1]
> and
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded
list[2].
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good
translators was paid about
> > $0.01
> > > > per
> > > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for
translating one of those
> > articles
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a
higher pay for contributors
> > in
> > > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would
also have to be higher for
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an
_enabling_ activity for
> the
> > > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of
articles it won't be possible
> to
> > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new
articles, and only
> > > translating
> > > > > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the
disputes in the communities
> > could
> > > be
> > > > > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > >> > we should also identify
good source articles, that
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should
be above some minimum
> size,
> > > but
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full
translations of the source article.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our
existing lists of good
> > > articles
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much
biased towards Western
> > World,
> > > > so
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps
such a project would
> identify
> > > our
> > > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > > >> >
_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list,
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> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > >> >
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> > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > > >>
_______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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