The community creates content. If the Foundation is involved in the community, they are indirectly involved in content.
----- Original Message ----
From: Chad <innocentkiller(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 4:23:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Incorrect. If the Foundation get involved in /content/. There's a
distinct difference
between not being involved in content and not being involved in the community.
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> If the foundation gets involved in community issues, they aren't an ISP under Section 230
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 12:47:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
>
>
> On 12/05/2008, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Meta is a project of the Wikimedia Foundation. If the remit is increased, Section 230 immunity goes to the birds.
>
> Meta is a website run by the WMF. Section 230 is specifically about
> making people that run websites not be liable for the actions of their
> users. You're not making any sense...
>
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Meta deals with documentation for Wikimedia projects. It does not deal with the Community aspects of Wikimedia. The Community Assembly was just a title with a nice ring. Community is synonymous with mob. Assembly sounds like something of importance.
----- Original Message ----
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 6:13:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
> In accordance with the principles of the open source movement, membership in the Assembly would be granted to any Wikimedian who requests it.
Then why have it as a distinct group? You're talking about "The
Wikimedia Community", so call it "The Wikimedia Community", there's no
need for an assembly. Once you realise that, it also becomes clear
that these "subgroups" are, in fact, just the naturally forming groups
of people interested in a particular policy (or whatever) that discuss
it on that policy page.
You've just invented meta. It's a good idea, but it's so good it's
already been done.
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Just because a body is large does not mean that decisions will be bad. Are you saying that the community is too stupid to govern itself?
----- Original Message ----
From: Jesse Plamondon-Willard <pathoschild(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:07:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
If it would make you happier, the consensus provision can be changed
to a 60% majority.
We can rarely achieve a 60% majority consensus for most issues on this
list, and its membership is smaller than that of an all-inclusive
assembly. Depending on voting also makes numerical superiority more
important than meaningful debate, so that a cultural or
special-interest minority (likely including en-Wikipedia) would
dominate the community through the assembly using numerical
superiority. Reaching many bad decisions due to poor representation is
worse than reaching few good decisions.
--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
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Would a separation of powers restriction satisfy your concerns?
----- Original Message ----
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:16:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Hoi,
Given that there are some 700 communities to start with, I do not think that
there is much awareness of the community that is the whole of all our
communities. When you add to this the issue with communication, these 700
projects represent over 250 languages, I think I am polite when I suggest
that there is a lot of communal intelligence to be developped.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Just because a body is large does not mean that decisions will be bad. Are
> you saying that the community is too stupid to govern itself?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jesse Plamondon-Willard <pathoschild(a)gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:07:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
>
> Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> If it would make you happier, the consensus provision can be changed
> to a 60% majority.
>
> We can rarely achieve a 60% majority consensus for most issues on this
> list, and its membership is smaller than that of an all-inclusive
> assembly. Depending on voting also makes numerical superiority more
> important than meaningful debate, so that a cultural or
> special-interest minority (likely including en-Wikipedia) would
> dominate the community through the assembly using numerical
> superiority. Reaching many bad decisions due to poor representation is
> worse than reaching few good decisions.
>
> --
> Yours cordially,
> Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
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Meta is a project of the Wikimedia Foundation. If the remit is increased, Section 230 immunity goes to the birds.
----- Original Message ----
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:09:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
2008/5/12 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com>:
> Meta deals with documentation for Wikimedia projects. It does not deal with the Community aspects of Wikimedia. The Community Assembly was just a title with a nice ring. Community is synonymous with mob. Assembly sounds like something of importance.
Then increase the remit of meta (which can be done simply by using it
for new purposes, there's no need for any structure). All your idea
involves is giving the community a new name - I really don't see the
point.
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Ok, how would you do it?
----- Original Message ----
From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:15:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
2008/5/12 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com>:
> A stupid question deserves a stupid answer. That paradox will be addressed by periodically revisiting the charter.
The paradox isn't that the community changes, that was a separate
point. The paradox is that the whole point of an assembly is to deal
with the problem of the community being too large to make coherent
decisions, so requiring the community to decide upon a charter before
the assembly can start isn't going to work.
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I was operating under the assumption that the PVC had not decided to continue. Is it?
----- Original Message ----
From: Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 12:35:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Geoffrey, a meaningful conversation requires substantive and thought out
responses. Can you assimilate what people have written to you, and post more
substantial comments in a single post rather than three, four or five in a
row?
For what its worth - I think the next step here would be for interested
members of the community to pursue the provisional council plan as indicated
in either my resolution or effe's (resolutions proposed for consideration by
the Board, mine was only posted to this list). Board approval is not
required to set up something as designed, all that was looked for was their
imprimatur - since they have declined to give it, for good reason, nothing
prevents people from continuing on as otherwise planned. Your proposal, its
merits and drawbacks aside, takes the issue back to the drawing board.
Nathan
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Would a separation of powers restriction satisfy your concerns?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:16:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
>
> Hoi,
> Given that there are some 700 communities to start with, I do not think
> that
> there is much awareness of the community that is the whole of all our
> communities. When you add to this the issue with communication, these 700
> projects represent over 250 languages, I think I am polite when I suggest
> that there is a lot of communal intelligence to be developped.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Just because a body is large does not mean that decisions will be bad.
> Are
> > you saying that the community is too stupid to govern itself?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Jesse Plamondon-Willard <pathoschild(a)gmail.com>
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:07:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If it would make you happier, the consensus provision can be changed
> > to a 60% majority.
> >
> > We can rarely achieve a 60% majority consensus for most issues on this
> > list, and its membership is smaller than that of an all-inclusive
> > assembly. Depending on voting also makes numerical superiority more
> > important than meaningful debate, so that a cultural or
> > special-interest minority (likely including en-Wikipedia) would
> > dominate the community through the assembly using numerical
> > superiority. Reaching many bad decisions due to poor representation is
> > worse than reaching few good decisions.
> >
> > --
> > Yours cordially,
> > Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Someone suggested video chat, I was simply pointing out ways of doing it. This most likely won't happen.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:14:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> And on the Wikieth day, God invited Skype/Teamspeak.
That was the day after he created geeks. There is still a significant
proportion of the population that has not embraced these technologies?
It seems as though you technocracy would exclude these.
But even if these are valid ways of doing things I see no difference
between a physical room with 100 people trying to all speak at once, and
a virtual room with 100 people trying to all speak at once.
Ec
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As part of the charter, there could be a restriction that project based assemblies would have precedence over global decisions.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jesse Plamondon-Willard <pathoschild(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:18:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just because a body is large does not mean that decisions will be bad. Are you saying that the community is too stupid to govern itself?
No, the "Community" you refer to is actually a collection of diverse
communities. The English Wikipedia operates very differently from the
way the English Wikisource operates, and they're not even different
cultures. I imagine both operate very differently from the way the
Urdu Wikipedia operates.
When you say the "Community" will make decisions by simple majority
approval vote, you mean that all issues will be decided by a numerical
superiority. This means the English Wikipedia, and the other major
languages, will become the de facto leaders and policymakers for all
wikis, regardless of those wikis' own preferences.
--
Yours cordially,
Jesse Plamondon-Willard (Pathoschild)
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A stupid question deserves a stupid answer. That paradox will be addressed by periodically revisiting the charter.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 10:04:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Community Assembly
Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> The community charter would be written by the community.
ROTFL
How?
We can probably agree that this community is large, even if we can't
agree on how to define it. We can't avoid the inevitable paradoxes
surrounding that question. We also can't avoid the notion that
community is fluid, and that its membership, however defined, changes
over time. This creates a situations that advantages the inertial views
of those who happened to be there when the community was defined.
Ec
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