Here is typically one of the message I receive after I
send a mail from gname to the main.
Walter, I just sent you an answer to your mail posted
on foundation-l
My mail was send to foundation-l via gname
In case you wonder, the gname also indicates *you* are
one of those posting to the legal list
just as alterego
and just as michael snow
and a few others
The mail I sent to foundation-l via gname is now lost.
It is waiting for approval from a list that does not
exist any more.
It will never appear on foundation-l.
This is what I have been experiencing for about 2
months now. I lost several mails like this. I already
entirely reinstalled netscape (and actually the whole
computer entirely), after the list became extinct, so
I see not why how my computer would be responsible for
this. I suppose it is more a config issues on your
side. Or from gname ?
But the fact it, *you* are apparently posting to
legal, and I can't answer these mails.
Find below my only feedback from my answer. Check the
date. This mail was what I received after I answered
to you about an hour ago.
Where are the lost messages ?
Fire, the person responsible of the mailing lists, has
not been able to answer me. Do you have an idea ?
But since foundation-l is now the main ml I use, I
find it problematic I can't quietly post to it without
fearing to lose dozen of messages :-( I lost dozens
:-(
HELP !
--- wikilegal-l-bounces(a)Wikimedia.org wrote:
> Subject: Your message to Wikilegal-l awaits
> moderator approval
> From: wikilegal-l-bounces(a)Wikimedia.org
> To: anthere9(a)yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:20:25 +0200
>
> Your mail to 'Wikilegal-l' with the subject
>
> Re: [Foundation-l] The list wikilegal-l does not
> exist - Yes, but
> some users still send mails to it
>
> Is being held until the list moderator can review it
> for approval.
>
> The reason it is being held:
>
> Post by non-member to a members-only list
>
> Either the message will get posted to the list, or
> you will receive
> notification of the moderator's decision. If you
> would like to cancel
> this posting, please visit the following URL:
>
>
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/confirm/wikilegal-l/f4fa14181f938acbc6caf…
>
>
__________________________________
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Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
>Michael Snow wrote:
>
>> Well, nothing in the classes of goods covered by this trademark
>> application should keep us from being able to register our own
>> trademark. So this seems to be more a minor nuisance, rather than a
>> fraudulent registration we would *need* to get overturned promptly.
>
>I agree. To register the trademark for our own "business" (online &
>print publications, CD-editions) is much more urgent. If someone catches
>these fields before us, we _really_ have a problem.
>
Is anybody monitoring this, in case somebody does try to register one of
our trademarks? I'm only familiar with the US Patent & Trademark Office,
which allows you to search online for pending and registered marks. I
haven't tried to check for competing registrations in other countries.
Wacht irgendjemand darauf, falls jemand zukünftig versucht, noch eine
von unseren Marken einzutragen?
>> It still would have been nice to make a timely objection, but at
>> least this Jörg Nagel isn't blatantly infringing our trademark. It
>> does make it difficult if we want to distribute Wikipedia-related
>> merchandise in Germany, though.
>
>A colleague of mine who is a lawyer told me that even this would not
>necessarily constitute a problem. We would not be allowed to found a
>T-Shirt company "Wikipedia sports wear", but in his opinion (why do
>lawyers always have "opinions")
>
In my opinion, it's because when lawyers explain the law to people, they
often keep in mind that in spite of their professional training, lawyers
do not get to decide what the law *is*. Definitive interpretation
generally belongs to the courts. So this formulation is common in the
profession due to a variety of motivations (trying to be precise, not
wanting to be proved wrong, avoiding liability for malpractice, etc.).
But this is all just my opinion.
>this trade mark doesn't prevent us from producing t-shirts and other merchandise with the wikipedia logo and
>name on it.
>
Maybe or maybe not, depending on the details of German trademark law,
so I'll defer to people with more expertise on that. But even if this
was ultimately legal to do, I have to assume the similarity to Nagel's
trademark would make it more difficult for us if he raised objections.
>> I'd be a little surprised if he intends to start a Wikipedia brand of
>> clothing on his own. Was this application triggered by some of our
>> German publicity, I wonder? Just some random thoughts.
>
>Seems so - the application was just one week after the big media echo.
>
Genau das hatte ich bemerkt.
--Michael Schnee
reflection(a)gmail.com wrote:
>There are a few pictures of me in my photo gallery which I believe is
>linked to on my Wikipedia user page. Here you go:
>http://www.br1an.net/alterego/ As you can tell I like photography and I travel a lot.
>I am also a Journalist in the Navy stationed in Naples, Italy. I work on my Admiral's staff so perhaps I am a little desensitized to working with rank as well as people I don't know well (or at all, most of the time). In addition I am attending UoMaryland European Division (just working on my requirements, it's hard to be in the military and school).
>
Thanks for telling us a little about yourself, Brian. It helps overcome
the barrier some of us may feel because we haven't had a chance to
observe or interact with you before.
>So, I don't think I am your bird
>
Yes, I think it's probably safe to conclude that you aren't User:Bird.
It's just your choice of Alterego as a username, combined with the fact
that Bird and some other disruptive people here have a habit of misusing
sockpuppet accounts, that made me suspicious.
>(but I do have a picture of a pigeon in my gallery)
>
Indeed, from my experience with some of the sites you visited, I would
be surprised if you managed to take all of those photographs entirely
pigeon-free.
>I was asked to help out with the Staff section and I
>did my best considering the time constraints. I received a rather
>decent lambasting publicly and privately for my effort. My apologies.
>
Likewise, my apologies for contributing to the lambasting. I was trying
to warn people on the list of my concerns about sharing this kind of
information with someone we don't know, rather than condemning you for
making a good faith effort to help. In the rush created by the grant
deadline, you got put in a difficult position. Your calm response to the
problems this created is commendable, and should make it easier for
people to trust you more in the future. I hope you will not hold this
experience against us, and continue contributing to the project in
whatever way you can. We have a principle of "not biting newcomers", but
sometimes we're not as good at that as we should be.
>So perhaps we won't get this grant application in on time, but perhaps we can in the future. In regards to resumes, we should probably have someone keep some on file. They are going to be needed in the future.
>
I agree, all of the work put into this grant application needs to be
preserved for future applications. For any résumés we've collected, we
should keep them unless the individual in question requests that we not
do so.
By the way, it would still be nice if you don't reply to this list by
including a copy of every message in the digest, since it wastes a lot
of space.
--Michael Snow
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
> Michael Snow wrote:
>
>>> 6) AOB
>>>
>>> Jimbo will contact a German lawyer regarding the registration of the
>>> Wikimedia trademark in Germany, which someone else is currently
>>> attempting to register.
>>>
>> This is the first I've heard about this attempt. If it's not too much
>> trouble, I would be interested to get some more information about it
>> (off-list is fine). I might also be able to help with the
>> communications if necessary, since I speak German, though I have no
>> particular training in German law.
>
> First, it's about Wikipedia, not Wikimedia.
> Date of application is 08.03.2004, so we missed already the 3 month
> period where we can object.
>
> Raw data in German is attached, short abstract:
> application is filed as a word mark by Joerg Nagel, Legan promotion
> (http://www.legan.de), for three classes:
> 22, 25, 28: (long list abbreviated: f.e. textiles, toys, games, tents,
> sports wear, christmas decorations)
>
> greetings,
> elian
>
> UG01 - Kurzer Überblick Markentext: WIKIPEDIA Markenform: Wortmarke
> Inhaber: Nagel, Jörg, Reutlingen Leitklasse: 22 Klassen: 22; 25; 28
> Letzter Verfahrensstand: Empfangsbescheinigung mit
> Veroeffentl.d.Anmeldung
>
> UG10 - Allgemeine Angaben Markentext: WIKIPEDIA Markenform: Wortmarke
> Letzter Verfahrensstand: Empfangsbescheinigung mit
> Veroeffentl.d.Anmeldung
>
> UG15 - Inhaber, Vertreter Name und Wohnort/Sitz des Anmelders/Inhabers
> der Marke: Nagel, Jörg, Reutlingen Zustellungsanschrift: Legan
> promotion GmbH & Co. KG Auchtertstr.4 72770 Reutlingen
> http://www.legan.de/legan_d.html
>
> UG20 - Waren/Dienstleistungen (gegenwärtiger Stand) Leitklasse: 22
> Klassen: 22; 25; 28 Erfassung / Umklassifizierung gemäß Nizzaer
> Klassifikation (NCL 8) Datum der Erfassung / Umklassifizierung:
> 18.03.2004
>
> UG30 - Verfahren (Chronologie) Anmeldetag: 08.03.2004
>
> * Klasse 22: Seile, Bindfaden, Netze, Zelte, Planen, Segel, Säcke
> (soweit sie nicht in anderen Klassen enthalten sind);
> Polsterfüllstoffe (außer aus Kautschuk oder Kunststoffen); rohe
> Gespinstfasern
> * Klasse 25: Bekleidungsstücke, Schuhwaren, Kopfbedeckungen
> * Klasse 28: Spiele, Spielzeug; Turn- und Sportartikel, soweit sie
> nicht in anderen Klassen enthalten sind; Christbaumschmuck.
Vielen Dank für die Information, elian.
Well, nothing in the classes of goods covered by this trademark
application should keep us from being able to register our own
trademark. So this seems to be more a minor nuisance, rather than a
fraudulent registration we would *need* to get overturned promptly. I'm
assuming that German trademark practices aren't that different from the
US, since international agreements in the field mean that at least some
basic principles should be consistent.
It still would have been nice to make a timely objection, but at least
this Jörg Nagel isn't blatantly infringing our trademark. It does make
it difficult if we want to distribute Wikipedia-related merchandise in
Germany, though. I wonder if that's what he had in mind, and what he
intends to do with the trademark. Make a profit by selling it to us, or
by forcing us to use his firm's services for merchandising? I'd be a
little surprised if he intends to start a Wikipedia brand of clothing on
his own. Was this application triggered by some of our German publicity,
I wonder? Just some random thoughts.
--Michael Snow
May I suggest that next time we are slashdotted,
someone please add a highly visible link at the TOP of
the main page, at least on the english wikipedia, for
say 2 or 3 days, so that perhaps some visitors feel
like making a small donation ?
The events are very demanding on servers, last week,
we were all slowed down a lot for 2 days, so visitors
might understand the need for more hardware.
Besides, given the number of discussions last week on
slashdot, about donation issues, that is perhaps best
to show clearly where donations could be made :-)
So, slashdot events would be beneficial both in terms
of contributors and in terms of revenue ?
__________________________________
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Given the increasing costs of hardware in Mav's report, it seems as if we
have to begin taking drastic measures to keep up to speed withour growth. One
possibility is that we begin compiling a snail mail list of potential donors, to
whom we begin sending out solicitations. Donation requests would be small
($5-$50), but this might provide some income over the coming months. Of course,
printing and postage would be costly, but this would be an initial investment
with hoped-for returns. Costs would include printing of a letter, postage, and a
postage-paid return envelope and form.
While I am not enthralled with this idea, it does work with other charities.
What do other people think?
Danny
Michael,
There are a few pictures of me in my photo gallery which I believe is
linked to on my Wikipedia user page. Here you go:
http://www.br1an.net/alterego/ As you can tell I like photography and
I travel a lot.
I am also a Journalist in the Navy stationed in Naples, Italy. I work
on my Admiral's staff so perhaps I am a little desensitized to working
with rank as well as people I don't know well (or at all, most of the
time). In addition I am attending UoMaryland European Division (just
working on my requirements, it's hard to be in the military and
school).
So, I don't think I am your bird, (but I do have a picture of a pigeon
in my gallery). I was asked to help out with the Staff section and I
did my best considering the time constraints. I received a rather
decent lambasting publicly and privately for my effort. My apologies.
Here is a segment of e-mail I sent to Anthere:
"I think it would be a wise move to take one of the Board members or
Bureaucrats and put them in charge of keeping a grant file on hand.
Some sort of generic representation of things normally asked for in a
grant application that could easily be modified. You would also need
to make this person responsible for standing a Grant Watch. What
grants are commonly divvied out that we would qualify for and what are
their deadlines and how often? A calendar could be put on WikiMedia
for this."
So perhaps we won't get this grant application in on time, but perhaps
we can in the future. In regards to resumes, we should probably have
someone keep some on file. They are going to be needed in the future.
If I can be of any help, just let me know. For now I am ducking out.
I will forward anymore correspondences regarding resumes to Danny.
Brian
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:02:42 +0000 (UTC),
foundation-l-request(a)wikimedia.org
<foundation-l-request(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send foundation-l mailing list submissions to
> foundation-l(a)wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> foundation-l-request(a)wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> foundation-l-owner(a)wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of foundation-l digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. fundraising proposal #1 (daniwo59(a)aol.com)
> 2. Re: NEH Grant r?sum?s (Michael Snow)
> 3. Re: Wikimedia Foundation Meeting, 4 July 2004 (Michael Snow)
> 4. Re: fundraising proposal #1 (Erik Moeller)
> 5. Re: fundraising proposal #1 (Daniel Mayer)
> 6. Re: fundraising proposal #1 (Daniel Mayer)
> 7. Re: fundraising proposal #1 (Angela_)
> 8. Re: fundraising proposal #1 (Daniel Mayer)
> 9. Re: Re: Wikimedia Foundation Meeting, 4 July 2004
> (Elisabeth Bauer)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:41:41 EDT
> From: daniwo59(a)aol.com
> Subject: [Foundation-l] fundraising proposal #1
> To: foundation-l(a)wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <2b.5bd56514.2e229d95(a)aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Given the increasing costs of hardware in Mav's report, it seems as if we
> have to begin taking drastic measures to keep up to speed withour growth. One
> possibility is that we begin compiling a snail mail list of potential donors, to
> whom we begin sending out solicitations. Donation requests would be small
> ($5-$50), but this might provide some income over the coming months. Of course,
> printing and postage would be costly, but this would be an initial investment
> with hoped-for returns. Costs would include printing of a letter, postage, and a
> postage-paid return envelope and form.
>
> While I am not enthralled with this idea, it does work with other charities.
> What do other people think?
>
> Danny
>
daniwo59(a)aol.com wrote:
> If the author of this email is not willing to even identify
> themselves
> to us, I don't see why any of us would want to send them a résumé.
> Also,
> I can't understand why résumés from bureaucrats would be requested in
> this context.
>
> Hi
>
> The author of this email is a relatively new volunteer to Wikipedia,
> who has taken on the responsibility of coordinating the CVs. The idea
> is to send CVs of staff, i.e., of committed volunteers with some
> credentials. This would include the board and developers, but also
> prominent users. If anyone is uncomfortable sending this information
> to him, you may forward it to me. It may now be too late, though I
> still hold out hope, however, it is something that other grants will
> want too. I can assure you that I will protect your privacy and
> foreward the grants directly to whomever is taking care of the
> particular grants in question.
>
> For the record, Alterego has told me that he is an American citizen
> living in Italy and that he is a journalist. From his impeccable
> English and his IP, I have no reason to doubt this, though I can
> understand people's reluctance to give personal information away so
> quickly.
>
> In the event that this information is needed for other grants, you
> will be asked again in each instance whether you mind having your name
> attached to the grant.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Danny
Relatively new is an understatement, given the contribution history. I'm
willing to suspend my suspicions about Alterego having ulterior motives
for collecting this information, but I still would recommend that anyone
who submits such information send it to Danny, not to
"reflection(a)gmail.com".
In general, as the Foundation acquires personal information about
various contributors that they haven't made publicly available on the
wiki, we need to be sure that information is kept separate and not
disclosed to anyone inappropriately.
--Michael Snow
Monday 12, 2004
Mr. Gelemerov; Martin
martin_gelemerov(a)yahoo.com
35039 Marburg-Lahn
Germany
Dear Fondation,
I would like to present you my Project: how can I help
to develop the wikipedias Database and make it
profitable.
First I am a bulgarian student in Germany. I�m
sdudying Economics.
I read a little about: How to make wikipedia
profitable, so that was the reason to write this, and
of course because Wikipedia is for me is a
Encyclopedia with a great future!
I can try to make a collaboration between my old high
scool and Wikipedia. I have a good relatioship with
the director of this scool. This school is in
Bulgaria, and teachs foreighn languages � english,
french, italian und russian.
There are several ways that the Students can prove
they knowleges, one of the most used methods is to
write a Project, about something in Mathematics,
Phisics, Chemistry, Logic, ecc..
So the students can build small groups (2, or 3
Students) to work together. When they are ready with
the Project, they can publisc that in Wikipedia, in
bulgarian and one foreighn language (that they are
learning).
I thing that, this scould be very interesting for the
Student, becouse, we are leaving in the Information
Age, the Age of Internet, they sould be happy that
they have finally did something in Internet, that
everyone can see, and read.
The question is how to persuade the Director? I thing
I have a good answer of this question: For this
contribuation they (the school) can receive some kind
of CERTIFICATE from WIKIPEDIA, with some good words
about the innovative Teaching-Politic, or -Methods,
for scharing information ecc.
So this Certificate from Wikipedia scould be a great
adverstiment for the School (and of course great for
Wikipedia too), ant I thing this can persuade the
director to involve Wikipedia in the School.
If that works, the scool can try to connect with the
Mass Media (like tv, newspapers ecc.), that�s again a
great possibility for Wikipedia to connect with other
Schools.
In my school are learning 500 Students. For one Year
they can make very much for the enlargement of
Wikipedia (especially in the bulgarian directory).
And what�s with 50, or we say 100 Schools? (and maby
not only in Bulgaria, so there is a possibility to
make somethiong like knowledge-exchange program, IRC,
ot some kind of that, but this is another point�)
And the best idea is coming now, that the point of all
I want to do for Wikipedia, it�s about donations. If
everything works, we can try to make a connection with
the Ministry of Education and Culture in Bulgaria.
That�s possible also indirectly.
My school is very-well rated school, so that many
children learning there have powerful parents in the
government. So that�s the best synthesis between
collaboration and donation (without any kind of adds
on the Wikipedia�s pages, like other proposal that I
have read on: �Making Wikipedia Profitable�).
THE ONLY THING I need is some kind of WIKIPEDIA
CERTIFICATE for the school.
So that�s the only thyng I need, so the next month I�m
flying to Bulgaria, were I will meet the director, to
speak face-to-face, and I will try to persuade him to
do this.
Sincerely,
Martin Gelemerov
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In a message dated 7/11/2004 10:52:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wikipedia(a)earthlink.net writes:
If the author of this email is not willing to even identify themselves
to us, I don't see why any of us would want to send them a résumé. Also,
I can't understand why résumés from bureaucrats would be requested in
this context.
Hi
The author of this email is a relatively new volunteer to Wikipedia, who has
taken on the responsibility of coordinating the CVs. The idea is to send CVs
of staff, i.e., of committed volunteers with some credentials. This would
include the board and developers, but also prominent users. If anyone is
uncomfortable sending this information to him, you may forward it to me. It may now be
too late, though I still hold out hope, however, it is something that other
grants will want too. I can assure you that I will protect your privacy and
foreward the grants directly to whomever is taking care of the particular grants in
question.
For the record, Alterego has told me that he is an American citizen living in
Italy and that he is a journalist. From his impeccable English and his IP, I
have no reason to doubt this, though I can understand people's reluctance to
give personal information away so quickly.
In the event that this information is needed for other grants, you will be
asked again in each instance whether you mind having your name attached to the
grant.
Thanks,
Danny