Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
*Post- en bezoekadres:* Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238 <(+31)%2030%203200238> mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479 www.wikimedia.nl Facebook https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitter https://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
*Overtuigd van het belang van vrije kennis? * *Steun Wikimedia Nederland! https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/steun-ons*
*Wikimedia Nederland organiseert regelmatig bijeenkomsten, u bent daarbij van harte welkom. Kijk voor meer informatie in onze agenda https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/agenda.*
Hi Michelle,
I am sure there were situations before when unofficial lists were used. I have been involved in the organization of WLM in Russia for many years, there are some official lists but there is no single complete list, so we had to compile our own database using a lot of sources. The database is incomplete and certainly unofficial but we still have been using it for years.
As soon as there is a list which is closed and the participation rules are clear, I do not see any significant problems.
(Having said this, I am not on the international jury, and at the end they decide what is accepted as international submissions. The St. Eustachius jury can decide anything concerning the competition at the country level).
Best regards Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:15 PM Michelle van Lanschot < vanlanschot@wikimedia.nl> wrote:
Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
*Post- en bezoekadres:* Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238 <(+31)%2030%203200238> mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479 www.wikimedia.nl Facebook https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitter https://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
*Overtuigd van het belang van vrije kennis? * *Steun Wikimedia Nederland! https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/steun-ons*
*Wikimedia Nederland organiseert regelmatig bijeenkomsten, u bent daarbij van harte welkom. Kijk voor meer informatie in onze agenda https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/agenda.*
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I agree with Yaroslav that the offical recognition status of monuments shouldn't raise problems on the lists.
I'm an advocate for local organizers define 1) what are their local concepts of "monuments" and 2) what are the monuments on their lists. Once this is done, the whole process comes down to (or should've come down to) the judgment of the technical criteria fo the images submitted.
The "monument" concept have different meanings in different cultures, as there are many reasons why "official recognition" status are not always present. In my opinion, this requirement would only act as a barrier for local heritage representation in the competition.
With best regards, Éder Porto
________________________________ De: Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com Enviado: terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 13:17 Para: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Assunto: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
Hi Michelle,
I am sure there were situations before when unofficial lists were used. I have been involved in the organization of WLM in Russia for many years, there are some official lists but there is no single complete list, so we had to compile our own database using a lot of sources. The database is incomplete and certainly unofficial but we still have been using it for years.
As soon as there is a list which is closed and the participation rules are clear, I do not see any significant problems.
(Having said this, I am not on the international jury, and at the end they decide what is accepted as international submissions. The St. Eustachius jury can decide anything concerning the competition at the country level).
Best regards Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:15 PM Michelle van Lanschot <vanlanschot@wikimedia.nlmailto:vanlanschot@wikimedia.nl> wrote: Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
Post- en bezoekadres: Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238tel:(+31)%2030%203200238 mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479 www.wikimedia.nlhttp://www.wikimedia.nl/ Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitterhttps://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
Overtuigd van het belang van vrije kennis? Steun Wikimedia Nederland!https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/steun-ons
Wikimedia Nederland organiseert regelmatig bijeenkomsten, u bent daarbij van harte welkom. Kijk voor meer informatie in onze agendahttps://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/agenda.
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.orghttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/
I agree with Yaroslav and Éder above. I can just add that as we consider the goal of the contest to help illustrate Wikipedia and wikiprojects, we have been organising "special category/nominations" for objects that due to different reasons were not "officially recognised" by our state, but were valuable for illustrating Wikipedia. For example, Jewish Heritage https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96_%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BC'%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B8/%D0%84%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0?uselang=en. The pictures of the objects without "official status" were just not submitted to the international part of the contest, and only awarded locally (usually with some thematic partners). We even had cases when some of the objects were later recognised as monuments officially, and we had their pictures handy, or destroyed completely, and then having those pictures under a free license was at least something...
З повагою / Best regards,
antanana
Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine Wikimania 2023 Program Subcommittee Wikimedia CEE Meeting 2023 Programme Committee
Disclaimer: This letter is sent in my Wikimedia volunteer capacity, not as a Board member of Wikimedia Foundation
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023, 21:26 Éder Porto F Alves eder.porto@hotmail.com wrote:
I agree with Yaroslav that the offical recognition status of monuments shouldn't raise problems on the lists.
I'm an advocate for local organizers define 1) what are their local concepts of "monuments" and 2) what are the monuments on their lists. Once this is done, the whole process comes down to (or should've come down to) the judgment of the technical criteria fo the images submitted.
The "monument" concept have different meanings in different cultures, as there are many reasons why "official recognition" status are not always present. In my opinion, this *requirement* would only act as a barrier for local heritage representation in the competition.
With best regards, Éder Porto
*De:* Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com *Enviado:* terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 13:17 *Para:* Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition < wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> *Assunto:* [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
Hi Michelle,
I am sure there were situations before when unofficial lists were used. I have been involved in the organization of WLM in Russia for many years, there are some official lists but there is no single complete list, so we had to compile our own database using a lot of sources. The database is incomplete and certainly unofficial but we still have been using it for years.
As soon as there is a list which is closed and the participation rules are clear, I do not see any significant problems.
(Having said this, I am not on the international jury, and at the end they decide what is accepted as international submissions. The St. Eustachius jury can decide anything concerning the competition at the country level).
Best regards Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:15 PM Michelle van Lanschot < vanlanschot@wikimedia.nl> wrote:
Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
*Post- en bezoekadres:* Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238 <(+31)%2030%203200238> mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479 www.wikimedia.nl Facebook https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitter https://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
*Overtuigd van het belang van vrije kennis? * *Steun Wikimedia Nederland! https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/steun-ons*
*Wikimedia Nederland organiseert regelmatig bijeenkomsten, u bent daarbij van harte welkom. Kijk voor meer informatie in onze agenda https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/agenda.*
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
All very valuable thoughts and insights. Thanks everyone for sharing!
Some additional thoughts of my own: Official can mean many things. I think the more important word I'd use is "authoritative". Does the fact that something is on that list, mean something? A list of "favorite buildings" by a random youtuber would probably not be a great list to use, but a provisional list from the government, a list by an established group of heritage enthusiasts in the country or some national museum are great examples of what would be great. This could be also a combination of multiple of such (smaller) lists.
Secondly, I would suggest to really try to work with public lists only. We can't work with a secret list - participants need to be able to go to the list and identify which building can be photographed. If the list compiler is willing to publish the list, that would address that. You could consider helping them do that.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 11:53 AM attolippip attolippip@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with Yaroslav and Éder above. I can just add that as we consider the goal of the contest to help illustrate Wikipedia and wikiprojects, we have been organising "special category/nominations" for objects that due to different reasons were not "officially recognised" by our state, but were valuable for illustrating Wikipedia. For example, Jewish Heritage https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96_%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BC'%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B8/%D0%84%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0?uselang=en. The pictures of the objects without "official status" were just not submitted to the international part of the contest, and only awarded locally (usually with some thematic partners). We even had cases when some of the objects were later recognised as monuments officially, and we had their pictures handy, or destroyed completely, and then having those pictures under a free license was at least something...
З повагою / Best regards,
antanana
Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine Wikimania 2023 Program Subcommittee Wikimedia CEE Meeting 2023 Programme Committee
Disclaimer: This letter is sent in my Wikimedia volunteer capacity, not as a Board member of Wikimedia Foundation
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023, 21:26 Éder Porto F Alves eder.porto@hotmail.com wrote:
I agree with Yaroslav that the offical recognition status of monuments shouldn't raise problems on the lists.
I'm an advocate for local organizers define 1) what are their local concepts of "monuments" and 2) what are the monuments on their lists. Once this is done, the whole process comes down to (or should've come down to) the judgment of the technical criteria fo the images submitted.
The "monument" concept have different meanings in different cultures, as there are many reasons why "official recognition" status are not always present. In my opinion, this *requirement* would only act as a barrier for local heritage representation in the competition.
With best regards, Éder Porto
*De:* Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com *Enviado:* terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 13:17 *Para:* Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition < wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> *Assunto:* [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
Hi Michelle,
I am sure there were situations before when unofficial lists were used. I have been involved in the organization of WLM in Russia for many years, there are some official lists but there is no single complete list, so we had to compile our own database using a lot of sources. The database is incomplete and certainly unofficial but we still have been using it for years.
As soon as there is a list which is closed and the participation rules are clear, I do not see any significant problems.
(Having said this, I am not on the international jury, and at the end they decide what is accepted as international submissions. The St. Eustachius jury can decide anything concerning the competition at the country level).
Best regards Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:15 PM Michelle van Lanschot < vanlanschot@wikimedia.nl> wrote:
Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
*Post- en bezoekadres:* Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238 <(+31)%2030%203200238> mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479 www.wikimedia.nl Facebook https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitter https://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
*Overtuigd van het belang van vrije kennis? * *Steun Wikimedia Nederland! https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/steun-ons*
*Wikimedia Nederland organiseert regelmatig bijeenkomsten, u bent daarbij van harte welkom. Kijk voor meer informatie in onze agenda https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/agenda.*
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
There are several problem layers raised in this thread. 1) What are monuments (official recognition versus other definitions) This definition should be left open for local organizers to define. A plaque honoring the victims of a police massacre in Rio de Janeiro put up by the local community was destroyed by the police last year: There are political forces and risks impeding even the registration of such monument. I totally agree that we need some type of public reference, but I personally would never limit those to “official”. We, in Brasil, use even school work of students registering their historical neighborhood buildings and statues.
2) How the organizers build their list of monuments Wikidata is a great solution, specially for these kind of monuments that don’t have an official identifier or registration number. There are questions of modeling the information on the Project as well.
3) Will submissions from those lists be accepted in the international phase of the competition This issue is raised by the other problems, but should exist at all. The international jury should never be the ones deciding what is and what is not a monument. At the point they start judging the images, the local organizers already submitted the 10 images of monuments of their country, therefore, the local teams already validated that that image depicts a monument of their list.
For Michelle, I agree with Lodewijk that ideally the references should be public, of course there are ways to model this information, but is the best practice. Whatever help you need modeling this, please contact me. I’m happy to help.
Cheers, Éder Porto
De: effe iets andersmailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com Enviado:terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 16:12 Para: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competitionmailto:wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Assunto: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
All very valuable thoughts and insights. Thanks everyone for sharing!
Some additional thoughts of my own: Official can mean many things. I think the more important word I'd use is "authoritative". Does the fact that something is on that list, mean something? A list of "favorite buildings" by a random youtuber would probably not be a great list to use, but a provisional list from the government, a list by an established group of heritage enthusiasts in the country or some national museum are great examples of what would be great. This could be also a combination of multiple of such (smaller) lists.
Secondly, I would suggest to really try to work with public lists only. We can't work with a secret list - participants need to be able to go to the list and identify which building can be photographed. If the list compiler is willing to publish the list, that would address that. You could consider helping them do that.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 11:53 AM attolippip <attolippip@gmail.commailto:attolippip@gmail.com> wrote: I agree with Yaroslav and Éder above. I can just add that as we consider the goal of the contest to help illustrate Wikipedia and wikiprojects, we have been organising "special category/nominations" for objects that due to different reasons were not "officially recognised" by our state, but were valuable for illustrating Wikipedia. For example, Jewish Heritagehttps://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96_%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BC'%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B8/%D0%84%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0?uselang=en. The pictures of the objects without "official status" were just not submitted to the international part of the contest, and only awarded locally (usually with some thematic partners). We even had cases when some of the objects were later recognised as monuments officially, and we had their pictures handy, or destroyed completely, and then having those pictures under a free license was at least something... З повагою / Best regards,
antanana
Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine Wikimania 2023 Program Subcommittee Wikimedia CEE Meeting 2023 Programme Committee
Disclaimer: This letter is sent in my Wikimedia volunteer capacity, not as a Board member of Wikimedia Foundation
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023, 21:26 Éder Porto F Alves <eder.porto@hotmail.commailto:eder.porto@hotmail.com> wrote: I agree with Yaroslav that the offical recognition status of monuments shouldn't raise problems on the lists.
I'm an advocate for local organizers define 1) what are their local concepts of "monuments" and 2) what are the monuments on their lists. Once this is done, the whole process comes down to (or should've come down to) the judgment of the technical criteria fo the images submitted.
The "monument" concept have different meanings in different cultures, as there are many reasons why "official recognition" status are not always present. In my opinion, this requirement would only act as a barrier for local heritage representation in the competition.
With best regards, Éder Porto
De: Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt@gmail.commailto:ymbalt@gmail.com> Enviado: terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 13:17 Para: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition <wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> Assunto: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
Hi Michelle,
I am sure there were situations before when unofficial lists were used. I have been involved in the organization of WLM in Russia for many years, there are some official lists but there is no single complete list, so we had to compile our own database using a lot of sources. The database is incomplete and certainly unofficial but we still have been using it for years.
As soon as there is a list which is closed and the participation rules are clear, I do not see any significant problems.
(Having said this, I am not on the international jury, and at the end they decide what is accepted as international submissions. The St. Eustachius jury can decide anything concerning the competition at the country level).
Best regards Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:15 PM Michelle van Lanschot <vanlanschot@wikimedia.nlmailto:vanlanschot@wikimedia.nl> wrote: Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
Post- en bezoekadres: Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238tel:(+31)%2030%203200238 mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479
www.wikimedia.nlhttp://www.wikimedia.nl/ Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitterhttps://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
Overtuigd van het belang van vrije kennis? Steun Wikimedia Nederland!https://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/steun-ons
Wikimedia Nederland organiseert regelmatig bijeenkomsten, u bent daarbij van harte welkom. Kijk voor meer informatie in onze agendahttps://www.wikimedia.nl/pagina/agenda.
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.orghttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/ _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.orghttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/ _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikilovesmonuments-leave@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.orghttp://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/
Hi,
I totally agree with Eder. Let's leave it to the national organizers to decide which built heritage structures they want to keep in their lists for the competition. Let the international jury and team decide only on quality of the photographs which are submitted by national organizers and not worry about monuments if they are on any official lists or not.
There are several countries and regions in the world, which, not only, do not have any official lists, but often even do not have any published lists anywhere. If we restrict ourselves only to published or official lists, then we risk losing a huge number of monuments to get them documented digitally and the knowledge coming from there. For under-represented regions, that's not a very viable option.
For Indian monuments, we not only compile official national, sub-national, municipal, railways or other governmental agency lists but also lists from private cultural organizations, citizen's initiatives, books or even our own field explorations. In spite of our efforts for the past five years to generate such comprehensive lists of thousands and thousands of monuments, we have only covered a small fraction of total monuments nationally with a very unequal geographical distribution. We often wonder, if we had the resources to enlist all the monuments from every corner of this huge country, what would be that number and what amount of wealth of knowledge, could we have gathered.
Regards, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 01:22 Éder Porto F Alves eder.porto@hotmail.com wrote:
There are several problem layers raised in this thread.
What are monuments (official recognition versus other definitions)
This definition should be left open for local organizersto define. A plaque honoring the victims of a police massacre in Rio de Janeiro put up by the local community was destroyed by the police last year: There are political forces and risks impeding even the registration of such monument. I totally agree that we need some type of public reference, but I personally would never limit those to “official”. We, in Brasil, use even school work of students registering their historical neighborhood buildings and statues.
How the organizers build their list of monuments
Wikidata is a great solution, specially for these kind ofmonuments that don’t have an official identifier or registration number. There are questions of modeling the information on the Project as well.
- Will submissions from those lists be accepted in the international
phase of the competition
This issue is raised by the other problems, but shouldexist at all. The international jury should never be the ones deciding what is and what is not a monument. At the point they start judging the images, the local organizers already submitted the 10 images of monuments of their country, therefore, the local teams already validated that that image depicts a monument of their list.
For Michelle, I agree with Lodewijk that ideally the references should be public, of course there are ways to model this information, but is the best practice. Whatever help you need modeling this, please contact me. I’m happy to help.
Cheers,
Éder Porto
*De: *effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com *Enviado:*terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 16:12 *Para: *Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org *Assunto: *[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
All very valuable thoughts and insights. Thanks everyone for sharing!
Some additional thoughts of my own:
Official can mean many things. I think the more important word I'd use is "authoritative". Does the fact that something is on that list, mean something? A list of "favorite buildings" by a random youtuber would probably not be a great list to use, but a provisional list from the government, a list by an established group of heritage enthusiasts in the country or some national museum are great examples of what would be great. This could be also a combination of multiple of such (smaller) lists.
Secondly, I would suggest to really try to work with public lists only. We can't work with a secret list - participants need to be able to go to the list and identify which building can be photographed. If the list compiler is willing to publish the list, that would address that. You could consider helping them do that.
Best,
Lodewijk
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 11:53 AM attolippip attolippip@gmail.com wrote:
I agree with Yaroslav and Éder above. I can just add that as we consider the goal of the contest to help illustrate Wikipedia and wikiprojects, we have been organising "special category/nominations" for objects that due to different reasons were not "officially recognised" by our state, but were valuable for illustrating Wikipedia. For example, Jewish Heritage https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96_%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BC'%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B8/%D0%84%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0?uselang=en. The pictures of the objects without "official status" were just not submitted to the international part of the contest, and only awarded locally (usually with some thematic partners). We even had cases when some of the objects were later recognised as monuments officially, and we had their pictures handy, or destroyed completely, and then having those pictures under a free license was at least something...
З повагою / Best regards,
antanana
Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine Wikimania 2023 Program Subcommittee Wikimedia CEE Meeting 2023 Programme Committee
Disclaimer: This letter is sent in my Wikimedia volunteer capacity, not as a Board member of Wikimedia Foundation
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023, 21:26 Éder Porto F Alves eder.porto@hotmail.com wrote:
I agree with Yaroslav that the offical recognition status of monuments shouldn't raise problems on the lists.
I'm an advocate for local organizers define 1) what are their local concepts of "monuments" and 2) what are the monuments on their lists. Once this is done, the whole process comes down to (or should've come down to) the judgment of the technical criteria fo the images submitted.
The "monument" concept have different meanings in different cultures, as there are many reasons why "official recognition" status are not always present. In my opinion, this *requirement* would only act as a barrier for local heritage representation in the competition.
With best regards,
Éder Porto
*De:* Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com *Enviado:* terça-feira, 27 de junho de 2023 13:17 *Para:* Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition < wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> *Assunto:* [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Participating without officially registered/published monument list?
Hi Michelle,
I am sure there were situations before when unofficial lists were used. I have been involved in the organization of WLM in Russia for many years, there are some official lists but there is no single complete list, so we had to compile our own database using a lot of sources. The database is incomplete and certainly unofficial but we still have been using it for years.
As soon as there is a list which is closed and the participation rules are clear, I do not see any significant problems.
(Having said this, I am not on the international jury, and at the end they decide what is accepted as international submissions. The St. Eustachius jury can decide anything concerning the competition at the country level).
Best regards
Yaroslav
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:15 PM Michelle van Lanschot < vanlanschot@wikimedia.nl> wrote:
Dear all,
Wikimedia Nederland is in contact with the local government of St. Eustatius who wish to host Wiki Loves Monuments this year to promote their local monuments and heritage.
Due to the special status the island has within the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the lack of adequate laws for built heritage, there isn't an official published list of monuments that participants could use. There is an unofficial and unpublished list.
Is there a workaround for these kinds of situations?
Thank you so much for your help!
Best wishes,
Michelle van Lanschot
Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
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You will need a list of what monuments to photograph
This list *should* come from a somewhat authoritative source, like the government, some museum... not made up by the wikimedians or that random youtuber.
In fact, I would say that many lists used by WLM organizers are not 1:1 mappings to the "official lists": they may join multiple lists, remove monuments that cannot be legally photographed...
The local organizers may use a different criteria for local winners than for photos going to the International Contest, and that is fine. A typical case is related to sponsors some specific prize (e.g. suppose Nikon had a branch in St. Eustatius that provides a prize to the best photo with one of their cameras). You may also have rules about not giving more than one prize to the same person, etc. It is not uncommon that not all monuments participate in both local and international competition (e.g. you have two lists for the local competition, but only monuments in one of them is used for the International contest). You need to define, and transmit clearly what your rules will be, but other than that, that is really no issue. You still have enough time to write it down before the competition begins.
The international jury will generally not interfere with your decisions of what should be forwarded and whatnot. I guess they might if a local team had a crazy proposal, but people there is usually reasonable :)
And of course, the list itself of monuments to photograph should be public. Ideally you would talk with St Eustatuis government (?) to get permission to use and publish that unofficial and unpublished so far list for your competition.
Regards
Dear all,
Thank you so much for sharing all your insights and advice, I very greatly appreciated it! I will talk to the government at St. Eustatius about possibilities for publishing the list. I will keep you posted on the outcome!
Thanks so much, again,
Hartelijke groet,
Michelle van Lanschot Projectleider
(ma, di, wo, do)
*Post- en bezoekadres:* Wikimedia Nederland Mariaplaats 3 3511 LH Utrecht tel. (+31) (0)30 3200238 <(+31)%2030%203200238> mob. (+31) (0)6 42154479 www.wikimedia.nl Facebook https://www.facebook.com/WikimediaNL, Twitter https://twitter.com/wmnl en Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/wikimedia-nederland/
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Op wo 28 jun 2023 om 00:47 schreef Platonides platonides@gmail.com:
You will need a list of what monuments to photograph
This list *should* come from a somewhat authoritative source, like the government, some museum... not made up by the wikimedians or that random youtuber.
In fact, I would say that many lists used by WLM organizers are not 1:1 mappings to the "official lists": they may join multiple lists, remove monuments that cannot be legally photographed...
The local organizers may use a different criteria for local winners than for photos going to the International Contest, and that is fine. A typical case is related to sponsors some specific prize (e.g. suppose Nikon had a branch in St. Eustatius that provides a prize to the best photo with one of their cameras). You may also have rules about not giving more than one prize to the same person, etc. It is not uncommon that not all monuments participate in both local and international competition (e.g. you have two lists for the local competition, but only monuments in one of them is used for the International contest). You need to define, and transmit clearly what your rules will be, but other than that, that is really no issue. You still have enough time to write it down before the competition begins.
The international jury will generally not interfere with your decisions of what should be forwarded and whatnot. I guess they might if a local team had a crazy proposal, but people there is usually reasonable :)
And of course, the list itself of monuments to photograph should be public. Ideally you would talk with St Eustatuis government (?) to get permission to use and publish that unofficial and unpublished so far list for your competition.
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