Hi all,
I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified monument available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nile_River_in_Aswan.jpg without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Monumento_a_Duque_de_Caxias.jpg without identified monument.
I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified for the international prizes.
I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does.
Best, Lodewijk
Images that have no monument go directly against the rules of the competition. So I see nothing wrong in not letting them to compete for the international prizes.
But for me it's surprising to see some rather small-sized, watermarked and low quality images among the best. Could it be due to the selection process? (read: can we fix something there to ensure better quality stuff ending up in final)
Regards, Ivo
2015-10-31 23:19 GMT+02:00 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org:
Hi all,
I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified monument available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nile_River_in_Aswan.jpg without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Monumento_a_Duque_de_Caxias.jpg without identified monument.
I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified for the international prizes.
I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does.
Best, Lodewijk
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi, I think that non-monuments should not be eligible for winning the contest. It is unfortunate, but such images should be disqualified.
From our (Ukraine) experience I can share a story from last year: we have found a 1900 church in a small village, its photo was in top-10 but we had to disqualify it as it was not a monument (blog post: http://wikilovesmonuments.org.ua/mykolaiv-oblast/ , the photo in question is in the bottom). We have contacted all possible authorities and they all confirmed that this church is not a monument, but the application for monument status is in draft stage since 1992. Result: this year the church was added to the official register of monuments following our request (blog post : http://wikilovesmonuments.org.ua/usi-v-berezanskyi-raion/ )
To sum up: * if it is not a monument and it should not be a monument, this photo should not take part in WLM * if it is not a monument and you think it should be a monument, try to ask your government to add it to the lists, sometimes it works * in any case, this photo should not be in top-10. Best regards, Mykola Kozlenko (NickK) WLM Ukraine
--- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "Lodewijk" lodewijk@effeietsanders.org Дата: 31 жовтня 2015, 22:19:52
Hi all, I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified monument available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters without identified monument. I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified for the international prizes. I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does. Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Thanks for the feedback.
I guess my main struggle is: who am I to decide it is or is not a monument :) Apparently, the national team allowed it as 'a monument' - should I take their authority for it? Or make my own judgement (but of course, ask for their arguments)?
Anyway, just to clarify: I don't want to 'shame' anyone, these were just examples that I could provide because they were published.
Also: opinions and taste about quality will differ. But that choice is really up to the national juries, and if the quality is low, they will quickly end up on the lower end of the pool. But that is another discussion!
Best, Lodewijk
On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:04 PM, Mykola Kozlenko mycola-k@ukr.net wrote:
Hi,
I think that non-monuments should not be eligible for winning the contest. It is unfortunate, but such images should be disqualified.
From our (Ukraine) experience I can share a story from last year: we have found a 1900 church in a small village, its photo was in top-10 but we had to disqualify it as it was not a monument (blog post: http://wikilovesmonuments.org.ua/mykolaiv-oblast/ , the photo in question is in the bottom). We have contacted all possible authorities and they all confirmed that this church is not a monument, but the application for monument status is in draft stage since 1992. Result: this year the church was added to the official register of monuments following our request (blog post : http://wikilovesmonuments.org.ua/usi-v-berezanskyi-raion/ )
To sum up:
- if it is not a monument and it should not be a monument, this photo
should not take part in WLM
- if it is not a monument and you think it should be a monument, try to
ask your government to add it to the lists, sometimes it works
- in any case, this photo should not be in top-10.
Best regards, Mykola Kozlenko (NickK) WLM Ukraine
--- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "Lodewijk" lodewijk@effeietsanders.org Дата: 31 жовтня 2015, 22:19:52
Hi all,
I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified monument available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nile_River_in_Aswan.jpg without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Monumento_a_Duque_de_Caxias.jpg without identified monument.
I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified for the international prizes.
I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does.
Best, Lodewijk
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing listWikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonumentshttp://www.wi...
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I think it is worth being consistent about the prizes, but definitely worth including those images in the metrics.
The prize draw rules have been published and include that we are awarding prizes for pictures of things on certain lists. If something that isn't on a list of targets wins then other photographers might reasonably say "if I'd known that any old building would do I would have taken some great shots near my home and not bothered to cycle an hour to some old ruin."
But for the metrics of course we should include such pictures, if the contest got us some great photos that we want but didn't ask for then we should still include them in the metrics. I am fairly sure that some WLM teams have been removing such photos from all WLM categories, that might make the judging easier, but it undervalues WLM.
~~~~
On 31 Oct 2015, at 21:19, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi all,
I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified monument available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters without identified monument.
I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified for the international prizes.
I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does.
Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Hi All,
We have had a similar problem in Thailand. Our team member raised a concern of what should be in the photo. The government maintains a list of recognised "ancient" monuments according to the law. To the general public, what appear on the list are old temples/churches, schools, palaces, hospitals, etc.
We have had a serious discussion if specific object(s) must be in a photo or it must be taken just in the vicinity of an officially listed monument. WLMTH/WLETH organising team finally adopted the second eligibility criteria for a few reasons: - The list provided to participants only tells them the place/location - not a specific object. - The jury can rule on case by base basis on the merit of an individual photo. - As a national team in this federated contest, we believe that we have an authority to interpret the definition in our local context.
Back to Lodewijk's concern, there are two principles that must be upheld:
1. Agreements between the local team and the international team: Do they agree that the local team must have a national list? Does the country eligible in the first place to participate in WLM? Rather than disqualifying photos individually, I am in favour of letting all of them pass (to honour your agreement with the national team) or fail all of them (until the local team rectify their own problem). The jury team can still make their judgment after this step.
2. Transparency of the process: If a photo or a whole country is excluded for any reasons, public explanation should be made.
P.S. Thanks everyone again for all the good years with the competitions WLMTH (2013-2015) and WLETH (2015). WMTH is planning for our activities for 2016. The current format of WLM/WLE may not suit our local context and we may have to leave or renegotiate the terms of participation. This may be discussed in a separate email with the international team of both competitions in the near future.
Best, Taweetham WMTH
On 1 November 2015 at 04:19, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi all,
I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified monument available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters without identified monument.
I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified for the international prizes.
I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does.
Best, Lodewijk
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I think we need a bit of input from the national teams. It's possible those *are* monuments, but the uploaders made a mistake and forgot to add the identifier - this looks very likely at least in the case of the Brazil photo. Sure, the national teams are at fault for not running a simple check, but it may be an easy to correct fault.
This is a tough problem, Lodewijk. It's our first year so I can only share our experiences and let you and others with more experience decide what the right thing to do is. Independent of your decision, it's great to see how much you care to make the right choice. :-)
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
I think we need a bit of input from the national teams.
+1, the case of each country can be very different and in the absence of a standard/globally accepted way to register monuments, it's hard to make decisions with very limited local input.
Here are the two examples we ran into in Iran's contest this year:
1) We had two questions early on about the unlisted monuments and whether people can upload photos for those. The two examples that I heard were the Caspian Sea (which resonates with the Nile river photo) and Milad Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milad_Tower in Tehran. In both cases, I told the users that they cannot upload these photos as part of the contest since they are not registered. (Milad Tower is one of the most iconic towers/buildings in Tehran and I would count it as a monument if the formal registration wasn't a concern.)
2) We ran into an uploaded photo of a monument with no ID, too, and we decided to keep it. Here is a longer version of the story and how we decided to move forward:
We have the Cyrus' tomb https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tomb_of_Cyrus_the_Great.jpg as part of the top 10 photos with no monument ID associated with it. In this case, Pasargadae which is an area that includes the Cyrus' tomb has a monument ID, but Cyrus' tomb itself seems not to have one, and we decided that we can consider the photo from Cyrus' tomb as a photo of Pasargadae, and then later figure out if it needs to be registered on its own as well or not. But, we didn't manually add the ID to the photo. In this case, it seems to us that it was confusing to the uploader what monument he/she had to choose (all the uploaders' other photos are associated with monument IDs), and it seemed the uploader had decided to go ahead and upload anyway. We accepted this upload.
Best, LilyOfTheWest
-- nicu
On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:19 PM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi all,
I wonder, in some of the international nominees (beautiful pictures again btw, congratulations), there are some where there is no identified
monument
available. For example, there is a photo of the Nile river without any identified monument, and in Brazil a photo of the Army headquarters
without
identified monument.
I have my doubts about such photos - while they are of good quality, if there is no identified monument, I wonder if they should be disqualified
for
the international prizes.
I would value your thoughts on this. Maybe it doesn't come up at all (I don't know how high up they will end), maybe it does.
Best, Lodewijk
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
Here are the two examples we ran into in Iran's contest this year:
- We had two questions early on about the unlisted monuments and whether
people can upload photos for those. The two examples that I heard were the Caspian Sea (which resonates with the Nile river photo) and Milad Tower in Tehran. In both cases, I told the users that they cannot upload these photos as part of the contest since they are not registered. (Milad Tower is one of the most iconic towers/buildings in Tehran and I would count it as a monument if the formal registration wasn't a concern.)
This is a contest, so it's important to have a level playing field for all the participants: draw the line before it starts (define a list, a criteria or such) and accept for the contest only what's in. Otherwise, some people will (rightfully) be disappointed.
- We ran into an uploaded photo of a monument with no ID, too, and we
decided to keep it. Here is a longer version of the story and how we decided to move forward:
We have the Cyrus' tomb as part of the top 10 photos with no monument ID associated with it. In this case, Pasargadae which is an area that includes the Cyrus' tomb has a monument ID, but Cyrus' tomb itself seems not to have one, and we decided that we can consider the photo from Cyrus' tomb as a photo of Pasargadae, and then later figure out if it needs to be registered on its own as well or not. But, we didn't manually add the ID to the photo. In this case, it seems to us that it was confusing to the uploader what monument he/she had to choose (all the uploaders' other photos are associated with monument IDs), and it seemed the uploader had decided to go ahead and upload anyway. We accepted this upload.
Give the Tomb the monument ID for Pasargadae, since it is a part of it, a detail For example, if you have a house which is a monument, a photo with a detail from it (a door, a window or such) will get the ID for the whole house, is the same thing as with your case.
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
Here are the two examples we ran into in Iran's contest this year:
- We had two questions early on about the unlisted monuments and whether
people can upload photos for those. The two examples that I heard were
the
Caspian Sea (which resonates with the Nile river photo) and Milad Tower
in
Tehran. In both cases, I told the users that they cannot upload these
photos
as part of the contest since they are not registered. (Milad Tower is
one of
the most iconic towers/buildings in Tehran and I would count it as a monument if the formal registration wasn't a concern.)
This is a contest, so it's important to have a level playing field for all the participants: draw the line before it starts (define a list, a criteria or such) and accept for the contest only what's in. Otherwise, some people will (rightfully) be disappointed.
yup. That's what we did, we said there are 26K plus monuments you can upload for that are listed, and anything outside of that won't be considered.
- We ran into an uploaded photo of a monument with no ID, too, and we
decided to keep it. Here is a longer version of the story and how we
decided
to move forward:
We have the Cyrus' tomb as part of the top 10 photos with no monument ID associated with it. In this case, Pasargadae which is an area that
includes
the Cyrus' tomb has a monument ID, but Cyrus' tomb itself seems not to
have
one, and we decided that we can consider the photo from Cyrus' tomb as a photo of Pasargadae, and then later figure out if it needs to be
registered
on its own as well or not. But, we didn't manually add the ID to the
photo.
In this case, it seems to us that it was confusing to the uploader what monument he/she had to choose (all the uploaders' other photos are associated with monument IDs), and it seemed the uploader had decided to
go
ahead and upload anyway. We accepted this upload.
Give the Tomb the monument ID for Pasargadae, since it is a part of it, a detail For example, if you have a house which is a monument, a photo with a detail from it (a door, a window or such) will get the ID for the whole house, is the same thing as with your case.
Makes sense. I'll do that.
L
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Just a quick watching of the available pictures promoted to the international phase and some questions, comments, remarks...
- Pictures with no monument at all: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nile_River_in_Aswan.jpg - Pictures with watermarks: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baldunngan.jpg - Pictures with unknown monument status: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:U995Steuerbordbug.JPG - Pictures from furniture patrimony (that's not usually known as a monument; if furniture patrimony is allowed, just let all the organizing chapters know: a large amount of pictures would be generated) - Countries promoting more than ten images (can the rest of us promote more than ten? we've just trying to tie break between the tenth and the eleventh picture and wonder if we can just sent eleven)
Although I assume that each national contest can follow the rules the organizers wish, shouldn't there be a common criterium to access the international phase?
Best regards
// M.A. Monjas (WM-ES)
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 7:28 PM, LilyOf TheWest < lilyofthewest.wikimedia@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
Here are the two examples we ran into in Iran's contest this year:
- We had two questions early on about the unlisted monuments and
whether
people can upload photos for those. The two examples that I heard were
the
Caspian Sea (which resonates with the Nile river photo) and Milad Tower
in
Tehran. In both cases, I told the users that they cannot upload these
photos
as part of the contest since they are not registered. (Milad Tower is
one of
the most iconic towers/buildings in Tehran and I would count it as a monument if the formal registration wasn't a concern.)
This is a contest, so it's important to have a level playing field for all the participants: draw the line before it starts (define a list, a criteria or such) and accept for the contest only what's in. Otherwise, some people will (rightfully) be disappointed.
yup. That's what we did, we said there are 26K plus monuments you can upload for that are listed, and anything outside of that won't be considered.
- We ran into an uploaded photo of a monument with no ID, too, and we
decided to keep it. Here is a longer version of the story and how we
decided
to move forward:
We have the Cyrus' tomb as part of the top 10 photos with no monument ID associated with it. In this case, Pasargadae which is an area that
includes
the Cyrus' tomb has a monument ID, but Cyrus' tomb itself seems not to
have
one, and we decided that we can consider the photo from Cyrus' tomb as a photo of Pasargadae, and then later figure out if it needs to be
registered
on its own as well or not. But, we didn't manually add the ID to the
photo.
In this case, it seems to us that it was confusing to the uploader what monument he/she had to choose (all the uploaders' other photos are associated with monument IDs), and it seemed the uploader had decided
to go
ahead and upload anyway. We accepted this upload.
Give the Tomb the monument ID for Pasargadae, since it is a part of it, a detail For example, if you have a house which is a monument, a photo with a detail from it (a door, a window or such) will get the ID for the whole house, is the same thing as with your case.
Makes sense. I'll do that.
L
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
-- LilyOfTheWest
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:49 PM, ecemaml @ es.wikipedia ecemaml@gmail.com wrote:
Just a quick watching of the available pictures promoted to the international phase and some questions, comments, remarks...
[...]
Pictures with watermarks: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baldunngan.jpg
Note that the respective watermark falls under "discouraged", not "unacceptable": https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Watermarks
Just as a note from the Irish team, when we contact the winner who has an image with a watermark, we request that they upload one without. Generally it is just that people don't understand that it is not best practice on Commons, and it is just habit that photographers add them.
On 5 November 2015 at 12:12, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:49 PM, ecemaml @ es.wikipedia ecemaml@gmail.com wrote:
Just a quick watching of the available pictures promoted to the international phase and some questions, comments, remarks...
[...]
Pictures with watermarks: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baldunngan.jpg
Note that the respective watermark falls under "discouraged", not "unacceptable": https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Watermarks
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
Same thing here in Brasil.
During WLE some people posted pictures accepting the CC-BY-SA license but added "All rights reserved" on the watermarks :-)
Rodrigo Padula Coordenador de Projetos Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa http://www.wikimedia.org.br 21 99326-0558
---- Em Qui, 05 Nov 2015 10:15:08 -0200 Rebecca O'Neill <rebeccanineil@gmail.com> escreveu ----
Just as a note from the Irish team, when we contact the winner who has an image with a watermark, we request that they upload one without. Generally it is just that people don't understand that it is not best practice on Commons, and it is just habit that photographers add them.
On 5 November 2015 at 12:12, Nicu Buculei <nicubunu@gmail.com> wrote: On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:49 PM, ecemaml @ es.wikipedia <ecemaml@gmail.com> wrote: > Just a quick watching of the available pictures promoted to the > international phase and some questions, comments, remarks... [...] > Pictures with watermarks: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baldunngan.jpg
Note that the respective watermark falls under "discouraged", not "unacceptable": https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Watermarks
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Rodrigo Padula wrote:
Same thing here in Brasil.
During WLE some people posted pictures accepting the CC-BY-SA license but added "All rights reserved" on the watermarks :-)
This is something worth to investigate: they didn't understand (or didn't notice) the license requirement, or due to laziness left unchanged the pictures they already had with a watermark on them?
nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Watermarking is just an example of disparate rules that make the international phase not equal for every country. Besides the watermarking issue (personally I see it as the less severe issue), there should be a common set of rules for all the countries contesting. As I've told previously, there are pictures that do not belong to a monument at all, countries posting more than ten pictures or providing images of elements of movable heritage (when the remaining countries only consider immovable heritage items). Unless the same rules apply to every country (for providing images for the international phase) the international contest is definitely flawed (again, it's up to each country organization to set the rules for the national contests, however, the international one should follow a single set of common rules).
Best regards
// M.A. Monjas (WM-ES)
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Rodrigo Padula wrote:
Same thing here in Brasil.
During WLE some people posted pictures accepting the CC-BY-SA license but added "All rights reserved" on the watermarks :-)
This is something worth to investigate: they didn't understand (or didn't notice) the license requirement, or due to laziness left unchanged the pictures they already had with a watermark on them?
nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
I guess for the international phase only 10 pictures of each country will be considered, right?
So we have to send only the top 10
Rodrigo Padula Coordenador de Projetos Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa http://www.wikimedia.org.br 21 99326-0558
---- Em Qui, 05 Nov 2015 11:07:01 -0200 ecemaml @ es.wikipedia<ecemaml@gmail.com> escreveu ----
Watermarking is just an example of disparate rules that make the international phase not equal for every country. Besides the watermarking issue (personally I see it as the less severe issue), there should be a common set of rules for all the countries contesting. As I've told previously, there are pictures that do not belong to a monument at all, countries posting more than ten pictures or providing images of elements of movable heritage (when the remaining countries only consider immovable heritage items). Unless the same rules apply to every country (for providing images for the international phase) the international contest is definitely flawed (again, it's up to each country organization to set the rules for the national contests, however, the international one should follow a single set of common rules).
Best regards
// M.A. Monjas (WM-ES)
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Nicu Buculei <nicubunu@gmail.com> wrote: On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Same thing here in Brasil. > > During WLE some people posted pictures accepting the CC-BY-SA license but > added "All rights reserved" on the watermarks :-)
This is something worth to investigate: they didn't understand (or didn't notice) the license requirement, or due to laziness left unchanged the pictures they already had with a watermark on them?
nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:07 PM, ecemaml @ es.wikipedia wrote:
Watermarking is just an example of disparate rules that make the international phase not equal for every country. Besides the watermarking issue (personally I see it as the less severe issue), there should be a common set of rules for all the countries contesting. As I've told previously, there are pictures that do not belong to a monument at all, countries posting more than ten pictures or providing images of elements of movable heritage (when the remaining countries only consider immovable heritage items). Unless the same rules apply to every country (for providing images for the international phase) the international contest is definitely flawed (again, it's up to each country organization to set the rules for the national contests, however, the international one should follow a single set of common rules).
Actually no, these are not important issues: - for the pictures that do not belong to any monument (which is probably only one, from Egypt), I am sure the international jury will have the wisdom to give it a small score; - there are no country with more than 10 pictures. France listed 3 special prizes beyond their top 10, but those 3 are clearly out of the international contest; - if there are pictures of furniture, not building interiors, also I am sure the jury will judge them correctly; - movable, immovable heritage, this is a federative contest and it was up to each country to define its list of monuments.
I noted both cases here, laziness and a case of a photographer that requested to delete all pictures upload during the when he really understood what CC-BY-SA means.
Rodrigo Padula Coordenador de Projetos Grupo Wikimedia Brasileiro de Educação e Pesquisa http://www.wikimedia.org.br 21 99326-0558
---- Em Qui, 05 Nov 2015 10:46:00 -0200 Nicu Buculei<nicubunu@gmail.com> escreveu ----
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Same thing here in Brasil. > > During WLE some people posted pictures accepting the CC-BY-SA license but > added "All rights reserved" on the watermarks :-)
This is something worth to investigate: they didn't understand (or didn't notice) the license requirement, or due to laziness left unchanged the pictures they already had with a watermark on them?
nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
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It is not a best practice but we should not fight against watermark. We should inform the uploader about free licence and the fact that one can remove the watermark and reupload another picture (please do not overwrite or engage in edit war for watermarks:p)
Sincerely,
2015-11-05 13:15 GMT+01:00 Rebecca O'Neill rebeccanineil@gmail.com:
Just as a note from the Irish team, when we contact the winner who has an image with a watermark, we request that they upload one without. Generally it is just that people don't understand that it is not best practice on Commons, and it is just habit that photographers add them.
On 5 November 2015 at 12:12, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:49 PM, ecemaml @ es.wikipedia ecemaml@gmail.com wrote:
Just a quick watching of the available pictures promoted to the international phase and some questions, comments, remarks...
[...]
Pictures with watermarks: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baldunngan.jpg
Note that the respective watermark falls under "discouraged", not "unacceptable": https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Watermarks
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On Thursday, November 5, 2015, ecemaml @ es.wikipedia ecemaml@gmail.com wrote:
- Countries promoting more than ten images (can the rest of us promote
more than ten? we've just trying to tie break between the tenth and the eleventh picture and wonder if we can just sent eleven)
It would be good if Lodewijk can clarify what's happening in this case. We
(Iran) had to use a rule to break ties or otherwise we would end up with 11 pictures. If going beyond 10 is an option, I'd like to discuss it a bit more to make sure we give our participants the same chance other countries are providing to theirs. :)
Thanks, LilyOfTheWest
Best regards
// M.A. Monjas (WM-ES)
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 7:28 PM, LilyOf TheWest < lilyofthewest.wikimedia@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lilyofthewest.wikimedia@gmail.com');> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicubunu@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nicubunu@gmail.com');> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
Here are the two examples we ran into in Iran's contest this year:
- We had two questions early on about the unlisted monuments and
whether
people can upload photos for those. The two examples that I heard were
the
Caspian Sea (which resonates with the Nile river photo) and Milad
Tower in
Tehran. In both cases, I told the users that they cannot upload these
photos
as part of the contest since they are not registered. (Milad Tower is
one of
the most iconic towers/buildings in Tehran and I would count it as a monument if the formal registration wasn't a concern.)
This is a contest, so it's important to have a level playing field for all the participants: draw the line before it starts (define a list, a criteria or such) and accept for the contest only what's in. Otherwise, some people will (rightfully) be disappointed.
yup. That's what we did, we said there are 26K plus monuments you can upload for that are listed, and anything outside of that won't be considered.
- We ran into an uploaded photo of a monument with no ID, too, and we
decided to keep it. Here is a longer version of the story and how we
decided
to move forward:
We have the Cyrus' tomb as part of the top 10 photos with no monument
ID
associated with it. In this case, Pasargadae which is an area that
includes
the Cyrus' tomb has a monument ID, but Cyrus' tomb itself seems not to
have
one, and we decided that we can consider the photo from Cyrus' tomb as
a
photo of Pasargadae, and then later figure out if it needs to be
registered
on its own as well or not. But, we didn't manually add the ID to the
photo.
In this case, it seems to us that it was confusing to the uploader what monument he/she had to choose (all the uploaders' other photos are associated with monument IDs), and it seemed the uploader had decided
to go
ahead and upload anyway. We accepted this upload.
Give the Tomb the monument ID for Pasargadae, since it is a part of it, a detail For example, if you have a house which is a monument, a photo with a detail from it (a door, a window or such) will get the ID for the whole house, is the same thing as with your case.
Makes sense. I'll do that.
L
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-- LilyOfTheWest
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-- Miguel-Ángel Monjas Discasto (formerly ecemaml) at Wikimedia projects: eswiki https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Discasto, cawiki https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Discasto, commons https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Discasto, wikidata https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Discasto, meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Discasto... Discasto at wikiexilio.org https://wikiexilio.org/wiki/User:Discasto
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:47 PM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
It would be good if Lodewijk can clarify what's happening in this case. We (Iran) had to use a rule to break ties or otherwise we would end up with 11 pictures. If going beyond 10 is an option, I'd like to discuss it a bit more to make sure we give our participants the same chance other countries are providing to theirs. :)
Look at the page, nobody provided more than 10 pictures: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2015_winners
Indeed, France listed 13, but there are 10 of them marked as 1st - 10th and then 3 "special prizes". Of course only the first 10 go to the international contest: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2015_winners#France
Thanks for clarifying this, nicu. :)
On Thursday, November 5, 2015, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:47 PM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
It would be good if Lodewijk can clarify what's happening in this case.
We
(Iran) had to use a rule to break ties or otherwise we would end up with
11
pictures. If going beyond 10 is an option, I'd like to discuss it a bit
more
to make sure we give our participants the same chance other countries are providing to theirs. :)
Look at the page, nobody provided more than 10 pictures: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2015_winners
Indeed, France listed 13, but there are 10 of them marked as 1st - 10th and then 3 "special prizes". Of course only the first 10 go to the international contest: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2015_winners#France
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
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Hi all,
first of all: thanks for all the input! Very helpful to read this additional info and thoughts.
In this thread some points came up that could indeed use some factual clarification: - Every country is different. Each country has a slightly different definition of monuments. That is nothing new, and we will always have to work with that. For example, some countries have a definition including ships, and some have even a few trees on their national heritage list. Some flexibility with regards to what is being photographed is therefore always necessary. One of the biggest differences is the size of the objects. Some countries recognize a whole city as one monument. That must mean that a photo of a part of a monument, also counts as a photo of a monument. This is the same as we did in the past. - We actually all have the same rules in the international competition, but countries can derive from that in their national competition. However, those nominated pictures will be treated equally in the international finale. You can allow watermarks in your national competition, but I can predict that the odds that a watermarked picture scores into the top-10 of the international finale is very low. Theoretically however, a picture could 'make up' for the downside of the watermark. It is not a hard requirement. - Countries can award as many prizes as they want. However, they can only /nominate/ 10 of them for the international finale. Theoretically, those don't have to be the top-10. In the past, countries have nominated the top-7 of the main category, and the winners of three special categories. But always maximum 10 per national competition. - For most of the other issues, I refer back to the judgement criteria: Technical quality, Originality and Usefulness on Wikipedia. If you only photograph a little snake that is in the garden of a monument with nothing of the monument visible, it is not useful for Wikipedia in the context of that monument. If you add big watermarks, it is not only low on technical quality, but also barely useful. These criteria have been the same in the past five years, and cannot be a surprise. Most issues where you think an image is 'wrong' are fixed by sticking to these criteria.
With regards to yes or no monument on the photo, which was the original question, I will take the approach that I only worry about the images that are likely to score high. If they do, I will get in touch with the national team, and see if they can help identify the monument. If not, and there is not an identified monument on the picture, I will propose disqualification to the jury. In the end, the jury will decide on this. Thanks for your input in this tough question!
Best, Lodewijk
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:54 PM, LilyOf TheWest < lilyofthewest.wikimedia@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for clarifying this, nicu. :)
On Thursday, November 5, 2015, Nicu Buculei nicubunu@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:47 PM, LilyOf TheWest wrote:
It would be good if Lodewijk can clarify what's happening in this case.
We
(Iran) had to use a rule to break ties or otherwise we would end up
with 11
pictures. If going beyond 10 is an option, I'd like to discuss it a bit
more
to make sure we give our participants the same chance other countries
are
providing to theirs. :)
Look at the page, nobody provided more than 10 pictures: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2015_winners
Indeed, France listed 13, but there are 10 of them marked as 1st - 10th and then 3 "special prizes". Of course only the first 10 go to the international contest:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2015_winners#France
-- nicu :: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
-- LilyOfTheWest
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