Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising - WikiLovesMonuments

31 Aug 2015

      Yes, sorry, they did *not* communicate it with me.
They finally came to a great decision, it would have been perfect if they
had just made a public announcement here.
Romaine
2015-08-31 0:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg mfwarburg@googlemail.com:
...
Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
...
The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
while I ma in change of the banners.
How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
Romaine
2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com:
...
Hello everybody.
I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
run
...
the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
worked
...
hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
continued a very honest and direct conversation.
I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
welcomed with the respect it deserves.
Best regards
Andrea
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com> wrote:
...
Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
So we can see what the community thinks about this.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
...
...
...
...
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
From: romaine.wiki@gmail.com
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
...
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
...
...
in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
...
Hi all,
Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
it
...
...
is
...
...
time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
situation. I
...
have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
organising
...
...
...
teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
September,
...
...
and
...
the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
Wikimedia
...
movement?
To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
situation, I
...
...
...
have set up this Request for Comment:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_W...
...
...
...
...
Romaine
2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com:
...
Hi all,
New update:
The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
resulted
...
...
in:

Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So

we
...
...
will
...
...
...
have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.

WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main

Page
...
of
...
...
...
Wikipedia

WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and

social
...
...
...
media
...
...
fire
They made clear this won't happen again.
To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
again,
...
...
what
...
...
we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
the
...
...
...
amount
...
...
of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
the
...
...
...
time.
...
...
The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
Wiki
...
...
Loves
...
...
Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
visitors to
...
...
Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
a
...
...
...
small
...
...
link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
I
...
do
...
...
not
...
...
believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
work.
...
A
...
...
...
...
blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
largest
...
...
...
project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
to
...
...
the
...
core
...
...
people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
fire,
...
I
...
...
have
...
...
no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
core
...
...
...
...
infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
fundraising
...
...
...
banner to a month later...
I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
afgescheept
...
...
...
...
worden (literally: being shipped of).
At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
large
...
...
...
...
ruined by it.
What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
team
...
of
...
...
WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
many
...
...
...
empty
...
...
promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
...
...
people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
not
...
...
...
really
...
...
get it.
I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people
from
...
...
WMF
...
who
...
...
are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
explain
...
...
...
what
...
...
Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
the
...
...
...
...
largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
contest
...
...
in the
...
...
world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
friendly to
...
...
explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
multiple
...
...
people, they do not really get it.
Lessons to be learned:

Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position

for
...
...
the
...
...
movement, they have a target to make.

Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They

have a
...
...
...
lot of
...
...
weight and use it.

Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking

banner)
...
...
is a
...
...
balanced, reasonable and well thought one.

Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not

impressed
...
by
...
...
those.

Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners

at
...
...
the
...
...
...
same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results.
Yes
...
...
you
...
...
...
can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.

Always have the complete team involved in the communication,

and
...
...
even
...
...
...
think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
feedback
...
...
on the
...
...
proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
experience
...
...
in
...
this
...
...
matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
banner,
...
...
let
...
...
...
the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
Romaine
2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-wiki@live.com
...
...
>:
> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
>
> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
first
...
...
...
> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
exactly
...
...
zero
...
...
...
> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
stuff, but
...
...
> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
important
...
...
> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
>
> Regards,
> Steinsplitter
>
> > From: rupert.thurner@gmail.com
> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > To: janbart@wikimedia.org; patricio.lorente@gmail.com;
> me.lyzzy@gmail.com; ubifrieda@gmail.com; jmh649@gmail.com;
> darekj@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrandecic@kit.edu; jwales@wikia.com;
> stu@wikimedia.org
> > CC: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org;
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
Monuments
...
...
> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> >
> > dear board,
> >
> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
to
...
...
spoil
...
...
> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs.
WMF
...
...
...
cannot
...
...
> and
> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop.
there
...
...
is a
...
...
...
> simple
> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
banner
...
...
for
...
...
> WLM
> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
covered by
...
...
> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
only
...
...
...
> ones i
> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
policy.
...
...
if we
...
...
> as
> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
it
...
is
...
...
...
> better
> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
rights
...
...
to the
...
...
> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all
the
...
...
...
people
...
...
> > doing some work.
> >
> > best,
> > rupert
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
zanni.andrea84@gmail.com
...
...
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone.
> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
situation
...
...
for
...
...
...
> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
important
...
...
> > > points.
> > >
> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
contacted
...
...
by
...
...
> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
explained
...
...
that
...
...
> the
> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
campaign
...
...
in
...
...
> Italy
> > > in September.
> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments
is
...
...
...
...
...
> well-known to
> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
discussed
...
...
for
...
...
> several
> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
banners
...
...
went
...
...
> live
> > > just for the last days.
> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
September.
...
...
> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September.
Given
...
...
the
...
...
...
> history,
> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
written
...
...
> so in
> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
negligible
...
...
in
...
...
...
> matters
> > > of
> > > communication.
> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
appeared
...
...
in
...
...
> the
> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
weeks
...
...
...
> before
> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
constructive
...
...
> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
it's
...
...
just
...
...
> better
> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for
just a
...
...
few
...
...
...
> days in
> > > the middle of September.
> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
this
...
...
...
does
...
...
> not
> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
expected
...
...
...
> results
> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > >
> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
clear
...
...
...
> negative
> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
Wikimedia
...
...
...
...
> Italia.
> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
and
...
...
...
...
> uploaded
> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
front
...
...
of our
...
...
> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
cultural
...
...
> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
Federation
...
...
of
...
...
> Italian
> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International
Council
...
of
...
...
...
...
> Museums),
> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
Club
...
...
...
...
> Italiano
> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others.
WMIT
...
...
...
spends
...
...
> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
money,
...
but
...
...
> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > >
> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
renowned
...
...
...
> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
McCurry (
...
...
...
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
Fontana (
...
...
...
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
from
...
...
the
...
...
> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
we
...
...
are
...
...
> > > fighting
> > > as WMIT.
> > >
> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy
goes
...
...
...
beyond
...
...
> being
> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
create
...
...
...
...
> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
pictures
...
of
...
...
...
...
> monuments.
> > >
> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
of
...
...
...
...
...
> monuments,
> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
For.
...
...
...
> Every.
> > > Monument.
> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
There
...
...
is
...
no
...
...
> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > >
> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > >
> > >
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_p...
...
...
...
...
...
> > >
> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
Italy
...
...
...
stats:
...
...
> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
is
...
...
the
...
...
> reason
> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
each. In
...
...
> 2014
> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
of
...
...
...
number
...
...
> of
> > > photos.
> > >
> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
Wikimedia
...
...
...
> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course,
also
...
...
...
Wiki
...
...
> Loves
> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
other
...
...
...
...
> sources).
> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
movement:
...
...
...
> but, for
> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
the
...
...
very
...
...
> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours
editathon
...
...
in a
...
...
...
> small
> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> competition
> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing
thousands
...
of
...
...
...
...
> pictures
> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job,
especially
...
...
...
when it
...
...
> is
> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
money
...
to
...
...
...
> build
> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
for
...
...
all
...
...
> the
> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or
their
...
...
...
career
...
...
> to the
> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
also
...
...
have a
...
...
> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
fundraising
...
...
> team
> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like
to
...
be
...
...
...
...
> confident
> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time,
and
...
...
...
that in
...
...
> the
> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
work
...
...
more
...
...
> > > collaboratively.
> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
with
...
...
WMF
...
...
> and all
> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
of
...
...
all
...
...
> the
> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > >
> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
gave
...
us
...
...
...
> opinions
> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
we
...
...
...
would
...
...
> like
> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > >
> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
...
...
> ,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
...
...
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
...
...
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
...
...
...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wi...
...
...
...
...
...
> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
...
,
...
...
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
...
...
...
>

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
...
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
...
...
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
...
...
...
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe

Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe