Dear all, the Lombardia region has released the list of monuments with free license and some groups are working to ask to other regions to do the same.
In addition Italy has reached an agreement with WWF ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Fund_for_Nature) to include also the naturalistic parks owned by that association.
The real problem is that all these lists are heterogeneous and don't have a single identifier valid for all of them and there could be the risk to have duplicates.
For this reason WM IT is working around a *new* system of single identifier to have all these lists in a single repository and to avoid any problems connected with duplicates.
Kind regards
Ilario Valdelli
Hello Ilario, thanks for the good news; as a Wikipedian, however, I am bound to ask some questions :-)
1/ Do you know what's the licence used by the region for the lists? Are they going to be released under a CC-BY-SA compatible license (or maybe CC-BY-SA itself)? 2/ We actually had a similar problem in Poland last year (no true unique identifiers) and - as far as I am concerned - Wikimedia Polska will be working together with a Warsaw-based think-tank and the National Heritage Board of Poland - that's the organisation responsible for maintaining the lists of monuments on a government level - on creating the first-ever system of totally unique identifiers. Do you plan to contact the institution responsible for the lists in Italy and work with them on your local system? I think it'd be nice to have such a cooperation, for various reasons...
Thanks,
Hi Tomasz, let me answer briefly:
1 - Of course, we are checking data licenses. They're OK. 2 - It is a wonderful idea to work together with institutions for creating a unique system ID, but we are way behind this point, and we have so many issues right now that we can't afford to engage in this. We just need a mere system to have a unique ID for our monuments, we are contacting regions/institutions one by one to have both - lists of monuments - *authorization* to pic the monuments
Of course there are many things going on (and good news too), but the ID is a technical issue we'd like to solve asap.
Aubrey
2012/5/18 Tomasz W. Kozłowski odder.wiki@gmail.com
Hello Ilario, thanks for the good news; as a Wikipedian, however, I am bound to ask some questions :-)
1/ Do you know what's the licence used by the region for the lists? Are they going to be released under a CC-BY-SA compatible license (or maybe CC-BY-SA itself)? 2/ We actually had a similar problem in Poland last year (no true unique identifiers) and - as far as I am concerned - Wikimedia Polska will be working together with a Warsaw-based think-tank and the National Heritage Board of Poland - that's the organisation responsible for maintaining the lists of monuments on a government level - on creating the first-ever system of totally unique identifiers. Do you plan to contact the institution responsible for the lists in Italy and work with them on your local system? I think it'd be nice to have such a cooperation, for various reasons...
Thanks,
Tomasz W. Kozłowski
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Thanks for the clarification, Aubrey.
My only point in here is that you'll need to change the identifiers on the wiki as soon as your central government decides on creating a true system for the IDs (that's what awaits the Polish WLM, too, I'm afraid), and it would be just great not to have to do that.
Anyway -- good luck with your negotiations with the local governments, and congratulations on what you achieved so far; we'll all have our fingers crossed for your success :-)
Tomasz W. Kozłowski, 18/05/2012 17:55:
My only point in here is that you'll need to change the identifiers on the wiki as soon as your central government decides on creating a true system for the IDs (that's what awaits the Polish WLM, too, I'm afraid), and it would be just great not to have to do that.
I think the ministry will not create such a list with unique identifiers before a century or two at least.
Nemo
2012/5/18 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com
Tomasz W. Kozłowski, 18/05/2012 17:55:
My only point in here is that you'll need to change the identifiers on
the wiki as soon as your central government decides on creating a true system for the IDs (that's what awaits the Polish WLM, too, I'm afraid), and it would be just great not to have to do that.
I think the ministry will not create such a list with unique identifiers before a century or two at least.
Thank you Tomasz for your cheers :-) Anyway, as Nemo points out, there is a HUGE problem with official lists of monuments in Italy, and IDs, and such.
I mean, when last year we went to the Ministry asking for the official list, they actually "*laughed*... Italy's monuments counts in *millions*, with thousands of different stakeholders (government, municipalities, Church, associations, etc.) I won't hold my breath about anything, regarding "official" lists and IDs.
The best thing we can achieve is to show them that a wiki catalog is possible, and if we do and we'll need to change the IDs, that would be a success. This is just my opinion, I think it is the time to be bold right now, we'll see what comes later.
Aubrey
On 19/05/12 10:19, Andrea Zanni wrote:
Anyway, as Nemo points out, there is a HUGE problem with official lists of monuments in Italy, and IDs, and such.
I mean, when last year we went to the Ministry asking for the official list, they actually "*laughed*... Italy's monuments counts in *millions*, with thousands of different stakeholders (government, municipalities, Church, associations, etc.) I won't hold my breath about anything, regarding "official" lists and IDs.
Well, if each of those lists have an identifier, you could make up an entity prefix and use it with their id to make the unique wiki ids.
(I know it's far from ideal, list fragmentation hurts us)
Platonides, 19/05/2012 23:27:
On 19/05/12 10:19, Andrea Zanni wrote:
Anyway, as Nemo points out, there is a HUGE problem with official lists of monuments in Italy, and IDs, and such.
I mean, when last year we went to the Ministry asking for the official list, they actually "*laughed*... Italy's monuments counts in *millions*, with thousands of different stakeholders (government, municipalities, Church, associations, etc.) I won't hold my breath about anything, regarding "official" lists and IDs.
Well, if each of those lists have an identifier, you could make up an entity prefix and use it with their id to make the unique wiki ids.
(I know it's far from ideal, list fragmentation hurts us)
Sure, but lists mostly don't exist in any usable format apparently, putting aside the fact that we're not only speaking of thousands of lists but also of thousands of responsible entities without a coordination.
Nemo
On 20/05/12 08:25, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Sure, but lists mostly don't exist in any usable format apparently, putting aside the fact that we're not only speaking of thousands of lists but also of thousands of responsible entities without a coordination.
Nemo
They look more like irresponsible entities :)
At least the 8000+ monuments in the province of Bolzano have unique IDs, for which we have created already the lists in de.wikipedia. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Liste_(Baudenkm%C3%A4ler_in_S%C3%BCdt...) As soon as it.wikipedia has decided about the tabldesign we could generate the lists for it.wikipedia,too.
Also we have assigned those ids to the corresponding pictures in commons and created categories to handle the wlm pics.
rgds Manfred
----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Platonides platonides@gmail.com An: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org CC: Gesendet: 23:27 Samstag, 19.Mai 2012 Betreff: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Another news from Italy
On 19/05/12 10:19, Andrea Zanni wrote:
Anyway, as Nemo points out, there is a HUGE problem with official lists of monuments in Italy, and IDs, and such.
I mean, when last year we went to the Ministry asking for the official list, they actually "*laughed*... Italy's monuments counts in *millions*, with thousands of different stakeholders (government, municipalities, Church, associations, etc.) I won't hold my breath about anything, regarding "official" lists and IDs.
Well, if each of those lists have an identifier, you could make up an entity prefix and use it with their id to make the unique wiki ids.
(I know it's far from ideal, list fragmentation hurts us)
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
There is already a testpage with some examples at http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:AleXXw/Test, if you agree we cold start to transfer the lists :)
Greets -- Alex
On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Manfred Kilian manfred_kilian@yahoo.dewrote:
At least the 8000+ monuments in the province of Bolzano have unique IDs, for which we have created already the lists in de.wikipedia. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Liste_(Baudenkm%C3%A4ler_in_S%C3%BCdt...) As soon as it.wikipedia has decided about the tabldesign we could generate the lists for it.wikipedia,too.
Also we have assigned those ids to the corresponding pictures in commons and created categories to handle the wlm pics.
rgds Manfred
----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Platonides platonides@gmail.com An: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition < wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> CC: Gesendet: 23:27 Samstag, 19.Mai 2012 Betreff: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Another news from Italy
On 19/05/12 10:19, Andrea Zanni wrote:
Anyway, as Nemo points out, there is a HUGE problem with official lists of monuments in Italy, and IDs, and such.
I mean, when last year we went to the Ministry asking for the official list, they actually "*laughed*... Italy's monuments counts in *millions*, with thousands of different stakeholders (government, municipalities, Church, associations, etc.) I won't hold my breath about anything, regarding "official" lists and
IDs.
Well, if each of those lists have an identifier, you could make up an entity prefix and use it with their id to make the unique wiki ids.
(I know it's far from ideal, list fragmentation hurts us)
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi, its great to hear that the lists in Italy are progressing fast.
In many countries in Europe the protection of monuments is a regional affair. For example in Germany some federal authorities have lists and single IDs and some have not. So it is often better to cooperate on a regional level than with a ministery.
If ther are IDs in some regions already, they could be used in the lists instead of creating new ones.
Kind regards from Beppo
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sat, 19 May 2012 10:19:10 +0200 Von: Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com An: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Another news from Italy
2012/5/18 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com
Tomasz W. Kozłowski, 18/05/2012 17:55:
My only point in here is that you'll need to change the identifiers on
the wiki as soon as your central government decides on creating a true system for the IDs (that's what awaits the Polish WLM, too, I'm afraid), and it would be just great not to have to do that.
I think the ministry will not create such a list with unique identifiers before a century or two at least.
Thank you Tomasz for your cheers :-) Anyway, as Nemo points out, there is a HUGE problem with official lists of monuments in Italy, and IDs, and such.
I mean, when last year we went to the Ministry asking for the official list, they actually "*laughed*... Italy's monuments counts in *millions*, with thousands of different stakeholders (government, municipalities, Church, associations, etc.) I won't hold my breath about anything, regarding "official" lists and IDs.
The best thing we can achieve is to show them that a wiki catalog is possible, and if we do and we'll need to change the IDs, that would be a success. This is just my opinion, I think it is the time to be bold right now, we'll see what comes later.
Aubrey
About point 2 there is the answer of Andrea, aboout the point 1 the license is IODL (Italian Open Data License) which is compatible with cc-by-sa 3.0 and ODbL (Open Database License).
The link is http://www.formez.it/iodl/ (it's in Italian and I have not found an English version).
Ilario
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Tomasz W. Kozłowski odder.wiki@gmail.comwrote:
Hello Ilario, thanks for the good news; as a Wikipedian, however, I am bound to ask some questions :-)
1/ Do you know what's the licence used by the region for the lists? Are they going to be released under a CC-BY-SA compatible license (or maybe CC-BY-SA itself)? 2/ We actually had a similar problem in Poland last year (no true unique identifiers) and - as far as I am concerned - Wikimedia Polska will be working together with a Warsaw-based think-tank and the National Heritage Board of Poland - that's the organisation responsible for maintaining the lists of monuments on a government level - on creating the first-ever system of totally unique identifiers. Do you plan to contact the institution responsible for the lists in Italy and work with them on your local system? I think it'd be nice to have such a cooperation, for various reasons...
Thanks,
Tomasz W. Kozłowski
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hey Ilario, very nice news and dynamics from WM IT. Keep up the lobbying eheheh
Let me know if I can help, we've had a similar problem with our lists.
More news from Italy:
"Deadly northern Italy earthquake hits heritage sites" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18135898
From Flickr
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2012_Northern_Italy_earthquake_004.j...
2012/5/18 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
Dear all, the Lombardia region has released the list of monuments with free license and some groups are working to ask to other regions to do the same.
In addition Italy has reached an agreement with WWF ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Fund_for_Nature) to include also the naturalistic parks owned by that association.
The real problem is that all these lists are heterogeneous and don't have a single identifier valid for all of them and there could be the risk to have duplicates.
For this reason WM IT is working around a *new* system of single identifier to have all these lists in a single repository and to avoid any problems connected with duplicates.
Kind regards
Ilario Valdelli
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Yes, I live 40 km from the epicentre of the earthquake and unfortunately there have been some victims, and damages to monuments too.
Aubrey
2012/5/20 emijrp emijrp@gmail.com
More news from Italy:
"Deadly northern Italy earthquake hits heritage sites" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18135898
From Flickr https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2012_Northern_Italy_earthquake_004.j...
2012/5/18 Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com
Dear all, the Lombardia region has released the list of monuments with free license and some groups are working to ask to other regions to do the same.
In addition Italy has reached an agreement with WWF ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Fund_for_Nature) to include also the naturalistic parks owned by that association.
The real problem is that all these lists are heterogeneous and don't have a single identifier valid for all of them and there could be the risk to have duplicates.
For this reason WM IT is working around a *new* system of single identifier to have all these lists in a single repository and to avoid any problems connected with duplicates.
Kind regards
Ilario Valdelli
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
-- Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada. E-mail: emijrp AT gmail DOT com Pre-doctoral student at the University of Cádiz (Spain) Projects: AVBOT http://code.google.com/p/avbot/ | StatMediaWikihttp://statmediawiki.forja.rediris.es | WikiEvidens http://code.google.com/p/wikievidens/ | WikiPapershttp://wikipapers.referata.com | WikiTeam http://code.google.com/p/wikiteam/ Personal website: https://sites.google.com/site/emijrp/
Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
Hi Ilario,
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
The real problem is that all these lists are heterogeneous and don't have a single identifier valid for all of them and there could be the risk to have duplicates.
This is an issue that at least Germany is dealing with as well.
For this reason WM IT is working around a *new* system of single identifier to have all these lists in a single repository and to avoid any problems connected with duplicates.
I strongly recommend to stay away from creating own identifiers from scratch! The issues that come along with it are much bigger and more difficult to resolve than not having unique identifiers! I know from last year that it seems tempting at first, but this is why it's not a good idea at all:
1st and most important: It's nothing but original research. It's perfectly fine to make up internal IDs for the database (you will have to do that, see below), but once those internal IDs show up on either Wikipedia or Commons, it's a violation of the "No Original Research" policy. Since the ID-system has to/should be the same over all Wikipedias, it doesn't even help if the it-community would be OK with it.
2nd: With own IDs, you lose the ability to compare your data with the official lists.
3rd: With that, you're moving away from the authorities instead of moving towards more cooperation, establishing yet another system for numbering monuments.
So what do I suggest you do instead?
As I said, we're facing a similar (if not worse) situation in Germany. We have literally more than one thousand institutions and authorities that issue monument lists for areas ranging from single municipalities to whole states (in total, there are about 1 million monuments). Many of them do assign numbers, but they all start with 1, so we have the issue that the IDs are not unique.
What we're going to do now that we have enough lists on Wikipedia: We will use an already existing numbering scheme called the Gemeindekennziffer which assings a unique code to each municipality as a prefix to the official IDs. (The actual system is a little more difficult, in fact, the Gemeindekennziffer is structured into different parts, for example the first to numbers tell you what state the municipality is in and so on. Therefore we'll just use the first two numbers of the code as the prefix for states that have unique IDs already.) This way, the IDs on Wikipedia and on Commons stay the official ones, only inside the database we add a prefix which is not OR but based on an official numbering scheme. I'm sure that you can find a similar numbering system for Italy!
For areas without any IDs in the lists, User:Wiegels has come up with some great ideas. For example, he is able to match uploaded images with list entries through temporarily created internal IDs.
If you're interested in "our" solutions, I'll be more than happy to introduce you to Wiegels and to make sure that the prefix-System we're implementing with Maarten's help will be usable for Italy and possibly other nations as well.
Best regards,
Kilian
On 22/05/12 01:11, Kilian Kluge wrote:
So what do I suggest you do instead?
As I said, we're facing a similar (if not worse) situation in Germany. We have literally more than one thousand institutions and authorities that issue monument lists for areas ranging from single municipalities to whole states (in total, there are about 1 million monuments). Many of them do assign numbers, but they all start with 1, so we have the issue that the IDs are not unique.
What we're going to do now that we have enough lists on Wikipedia: We will use an already existing numbering scheme called the Gemeindekennziffer which assings a unique code to each municipality as a prefix to the official IDs. (The actual system is a little more difficult, in fact, the Gemeindekennziffer is structured into different parts, for example the first to numbers tell you what state the municipality is in and so on. Therefore we'll just use the first two numbers of the code as the prefix for states that have unique IDs already.) This way, the IDs on Wikipedia and on Commons stay the official ones, only inside the database we add a prefix which is not OR but based on an official numbering scheme. I'm sure that you can find a similar numbering system for Italy!
What identifier is used by people when uploading the images? If the unprefixed one, how do you find out automatically the municipality?
wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org