OK, I don't want to insist on this, but let me state my opinion.
The way I see it, having a category full of unsorted images is of no use
for anyone, except for the jury, which will use it *once*. I can't
imagine why a "Commons user" would go to [[Category:Cultural heritage
monuments in Portugal with known IDs]] to find any image - although I
understand its usage-principle for "Commons operators", though.
Every other usage (like getting the images for a particular ID) can
always be a join of:
* All File: that has the ID
* Plus: all File: in the categories that have the ID.
Jane, about that categorization, I have always expected to be automatic,
but got a bit surprised about the "no database access" news. In any
case, they can always be categorized with a bot that does something like
this:
* Get all images by ID; For each image: create/get a category based on
the object name, put all images in there, remove the ID and whatever is
commons. And no, I'm not forgetting about disambiguations :-)
Eventually, I'll make a bot for that, so I might help you with yours
later if you want to follow this approach.
--
Nuno Tavares
Wikimedia Portugal
http://www.wikimedia.pt
Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que
estamos a fazer.
Participe também:
http://www.wikimedia.pt
Em 03-08-2011 11:47, Jane Darnell escreveu:
> I agree about keeping the ID's on the pictures - for the Netherlands,
> whenever I sort a WLM picture into a category I copy the template to the
> category for browsing convenience, but I certainly never remove it from
> the picture. We *want* those tags on the picture so people can easily
> look for pictures by ID number. And there are still a lot of pictures
> from last year to put in categories by the way, in case anyone is
> interested!
>
>
> 2011/8/3 GoEthe.wiki <goethe.wiki@gmail.com
mailto:goethe.wiki@gmail.com>
>
> Hi, Nuno.
> I don't think removing the IGESPAR template from files makes sense
> even if there is a category for the object.
> Note that the template can be changed so that it shows a different
> text and categorize it differently if it is included in different
> domains.
> I already did a few changes to the template so that it only includes
> the [[Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Portugal with known
> IDs]] in file pages.
>
> This makes sure that the same template can be used for your issue 1.
> and the issue 2. It also means that we can change the {{IGESPAR}},
> {{SIPA}}, whatever, to have similar behaviour in file pages in order
> to categorize in the same top-level category. I don't think there is
> a problem to have a file both down the category tree and in a
> over-arching category with all photos.
>
> Best,
> Gonçalo
>
>
>
>
> 2011/8/3 Nuno Tavares <nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt
>
mailto:nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt>
>
> Hello all,
>
> I didn't quite get the beginning of this thread, but I have some
> remarks
> from what I understand. First of all, there seem to be two
> issues here:
>
> 1. Organization issue: Having a category tree to allow browsing by
> "ID-enabled" images (in WLM-PT we have linked commons categories
> with
> object ids whenever possible);
>
> 2. Convenience issue: Having a specific category for images of
> country
> objects to pass on to the jury, as a pool of candidates.
>
> Jane, the unfortunate part is that I've been removing the
> {{IGESPAR}}
> template from all images I've found whenever there is a category
> for the
> "objects" in question (or one that I have created for that purpose).
> That's what makes sense to me, anyway, but doesn't invalidate having
> whatever top-categories - in this case, "Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> Portugal with known IDs" (it would aggregate
> {{IGESPAR}}+{{DRAC-RAM}}+{{DRAM-RAA}} then, although I'm
> (lazily) using
> Category:IGESPAR for that.
>
> Lodewijk, complementing, the country-specific category could be
> fetched
> from the parameters passed to the form, right? I believe we already
> agreed on passing an ID and a Country.
>
> Susana, I actually believe we should categorize a lot! See:
> - Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011, for those who want to
> dig into
> *all* images from *all* contries - like Europeana's Art Noveau Juri;
> - Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal, for Portuguese
> Juri;
> - Imóveis_de_Interesse_Público_in_Lisbon (replace "Imóveis de
> Interesse
> Público" and "Lisbon" accordingly) to keep up with the current
> category
> structure, which is IGESPAR related.
> - Campo_Pequeno - which is the building category;
> - IGESPAR - inherited from {{IGESPAR}} (and due to my laziness,
> DRAC-RAM
> and DRAC-RAA) which is used to tag an ID into the picture (or
> category).
> - Up to now, I'm expected that the categories get automatically
> placed,
> either from the form, or a post-bot-run. Eventually there are
> others:
> manually inserted, like "Palaces in Portugal", and those related to
> geolocalization that don't interfere with anything, I believe.
>
> In short, Jane and Susana, I wouldn't mix {{IGESPAR}} and
> {{Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal}} purposes. The
> former
> is for keeping a link between the lists, and the second is for
> the Juri.
>
> You can imagine how the bottom of the page will look, though :)
>
>
> Béria, just a note regarding SIPA and IGESPAR: only IGESPAR's
> objects
> have some kind of protection; this means SIPA's shouldn't have
> designations like "Monumento Nacional". In the end, roughly, all
> SIPA
> are "unprotected".
>
> This also means the everyone relying to IGESPAR id should be
> clarified
> by now: the monument ID is a specific WLM id. Its range will
> dictate to
> which it refers to: IGESPAR, Azores, Madeira or SIPA.
>
>
>
> --
> Nuno Tavares
> Wikimedia Portugal
>
http://www.wikimedia.pt
>
> Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade
> de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso
> o que
> estamos a fazer.
>
> Participe também:
http://www.wikimedia.pt
>
> Em 03-08-2011 09:53, Lodewijk escreveu:
> > There should be country specific subcategories there indeed -
> you are
> > correct :) I suggest putting this category /in/ your country
> specific
> > contest template. Not sure if someone already designed one
> actually to
> > be re-used. Besides that I believe there are some temporary
> categories
> > involved, like "needs to be included in the lists" etc which
> involved
> > more manual work but can be done by anyone who knows Wikipedia.
> >
> > Best,
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > 2011/8/3 Susana Morais <susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
>
mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
> >
mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt>>
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have some questions. For the WLM competition we will ask the
> > participant to upload the photo with the ID number (he has
> > previously seen in that great list we have in our site
> :)). Then the
> > photo will be automatically (?) tagged under a specific
> sub-cat in
> > this
> > category
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_...,
> > right? Do the categories need to be more specific for the
> > competition (this doenst mean we shouldnt be thinking how to
> > organize them better after the wlm)? I think that it is easier
> > during the WLM to have all photos in the competition in
> one simple
> > category (easier for the jury).
> >
> > Susana
> >
> >
> > 2011/8/3 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com
>
mailto:jane023@gmail.com mailto:jane023@gmail.com
mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>
> >
> > Béria,
> > The key here is the word "monument". In order for a WLM
> > participant to upload a photo based on local
> instructions, he
> > needs an ID number. Presumeably he/she has found this
> number
> > from your wonderful Portuguese map with ID coordinates
> on your
> > WLM website, am I right?
> >
> > In the Netherlands, some (not ALL) Rijksmonuments have the
> > number physically on a brown plaque on the building
> itself. What
> > do you call this number? I assume you do not call it
> "Cultural
> > heritage monument number". In order to match it to
> either the
> > IGESPAR or SIPA numbers you will need to have a key in
> the ID
> > number, won't you?
> >
> > I noticed the following situation:
> >
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Campo_Pequeno_Lisboa
> > is tagged with the template {{IGESPAR|74571|type=IIP}}
> > I would therefore expect to see this category have photo's
> > tagged with this same number, but for example,
> >
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Campo_Pequeno_lisbon.JPG
> > is not tagged.
> > I would expect the category to be placed in a category
> called
> > "Category:IGESPAR objects in Lisbon (district)", but I
> see the
> > category "Category:Imóveis de Interesse Público in Lisbon
> > (district)" instead.
> >
> > I suppose the template sub-tag "IIP" stands for
> "Imóveis de
> > Interesse Público", so I get that you have broken your
> > designations down by type, but I am curious how you will
> > instruct the jury to choose foto's if the photo's
> themselves are
> > not tagged. Though my Portuguese is pretty bad, I
> think the
> > (spectacular) pictures of the bulls themselves, which
> are also
> > in that category are not "Imóveis".
> >
> > Jane
> >
> > 2011/8/3 Béria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
>
mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
> >
mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>
> >
> > We have lists outside IGESPAR. The IGESPAR one has 4K
> > monuments, the SIPA one almost 40K. We are using both.
> > _____
> > /Béria Lima/
> > Wikimedia Portugal
http://wikimedia.pt
> > (351) 963 953 042
> >
> > /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a
> > possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de
> todo o
> > conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer./
> >
> >
> > On 3 August 2011 08:39, Jane Darnell
> <jane023@gmail.com
mailto:jane023@gmail.com
> >
mailto:jane023@gmail.com
mailto:jane023@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Béria,
> > Maybe I am just too unfamiliar with the
> technicalities,
> > but my feeling would be yes, stuff all 4
> categories into
> > "IGESPAR objects in Portugal with known IDs".
> Under this
> > toplevel, there should be for example, a
> category called
> > "Monumentos Nacionais with known IDs".
> >
> > Is there a problem with the WLM database that
> you can't
> > have subcategories for the top-level ones? Or
> do you
> > mean that you have lists outside of IGESPAR?
> >
> > Jane
> >
> >
> > 2011/8/2 Béria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
>
mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
> >
mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>
> >
> > Portugal can't use a single name. We have
> 4 types of
> > monuments ( see here:
> >
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_in_Portu...
> > ).
> >
> > We can create 4 "main categories", but
> they would
> > still need to be under a "Cultural Heritage in
> > Portugal" category.
> > _____
> > /Béria Lima/
> > Wikimedia Portugal
http://wikimedia.pt
> > (351) 963 953 042
> >
> > /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer
> pessoa a
> > possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao
> somatório de
> > todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que
> estamos a
> > fazer./
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2 August 2011 11:11, Kilian Kluge
> > <kilian@k-kluge.de
>
mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de
mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jane,
> >
> > in Germany the trouble is that in
> every state
> > there are different names for
> essentially the
> > same thing. Some just have
> "Kulturdenkmale"
> > (cultural heritage monuments), some have
> > "Baudenkmale" ("building heritage
> monuments"),
> > some have both, some differentiate
> between three
> > or four categories... It's already a bit
> > confusing on de-wp, where as a result
> the lists
> > for each state have different naming
> schemes,
> > and I doubt that it'd be helpful to
> carry this
> > to Commons.
> >
> > Kilian
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Jane
> Darnell
> > <jane023@gmail.com
>
mailto:jane023@gmail.com mailto:jane023@gmail.com
mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > I am sending out a new message,
> since I feel
> > this issue is pretty important and
> impacts a
> > lot of Wikipedia projects. The
> other issues
> > that Bas addressed also need
> follow up, but
> > let's tackle these categories first.
> >
> > This is the list of categories as
> they stand
> > today on Commons in the top level
> category
> > (see the email from Bas):
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Andorra with known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Austria with known IDs
> > Category:Onroerend erfgoed with
> known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Brussels with known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Estonia (with known IDs)
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Hesse with known ID
> > Category:Rijksmonumenten with
> known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Portugal with known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Romania with known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Spain with known IDs
> > Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in
> > Wallonia with known IDs
> >
> > I think only the Belgians and the
> Dutch have
> > chosen their names well, because
> they are
> > using the terms that are covered
> by law in
> > their country. The other
> categories should
> > be renamed to reflect the legal
> term in
> > those countries. My reasons are as
> follows:
> > 1) The term "Cultural heritage
> monument" is
> > not defined anywhere, in any country's
> > wikipedia.
> > 2) We are using a formal
> designation that
> > has been assigned by a government
> agency and
> > is covered by the European Council's
> > international law on cultural
> property. In
> > order to refer to the proper
> designation, we
> > need the formal name of the
> designation.
> > 3) The sub categories are going to
> have
> > native names anyway, so why have a
> strangely
> > named top-level category that no one
> > understands (including
> English-speakers)?
> > 4) When we make interwiki links to
> these
> > things we should be consistent
> across all
> > countries.
> >
> > I noticed a confusing situation
> has already
> > occurred in the German Wikipedia,
> where the
> > top level category for the Austrian
> > monuments is "Kategorie:Liste
> > (Kulturdenkmale in Österreich)",
> when I
> > fully expected it to be
> > "Kategorie:Denkmalgeschütztes
> Objekte". On
> > Commons I would expect
> > "Category:Denkmalgeschütztes
> Objekte with
> > known IDs", and in the English
> Wikipedia, I
> > named it
> "Category:Denkmalgeschütztes Objekte".
> >
> > Jane
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> >
> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>
mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> >
http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
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