OK, I don't want to insist on this, but let me state my opinion.
The way I see it, having a category full of unsorted images is of no use
for anyone, except for the jury, which will use it *once*. I can't
imagine why a "Commons user" would go to [[Category:Cultural heritage
monuments in Portugal with known IDs]] to find any image - although I
understand its usage-principle for "Commons operators", though.
Every other usage (like getting the images for a particular ID) can
always be a join of:
* All File: that has the ID
* Plus: all File: in the categories that have the ID.
Jane, about that categorization, I have always expected to be automatic,
but got a bit surprised about the "no database access" news. In any
case, they can always be categorized with a bot that does something like
this:
* Get all images by ID; For each image: create/get a category based on
the object name, put all images in there, remove the ID and whatever is
commons. And no, I'm not forgetting about disambiguations :-)
Eventually, I'll make a bot for that, so I might help you with yours
later if you want to follow this approach.
--
Nuno Tavares
Wikimedia Portugal
Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que
estamos a fazer.
Participe também:
I agree about keeping the ID's on the pictures -
for the Netherlands,
whenever I sort a WLM picture into a category I copy the template to the
category for browsing convenience, but I certainly never remove it from
the picture. We *want* those tags on the picture so people can easily
look for pictures by ID number. And there are still a lot of pictures
from last year to put in categories by the way, in case anyone is
interested!
2011/8/3 GoEthe.wiki <goethe.wiki(a)gmail.com <mailto:goethe.wiki@gmail.com>>
Hi, Nuno.
I don't think removing the IGESPAR template from files makes sense
even if there is a category for the object.
Note that the template can be changed so that it shows a different
text and categorize it differently if it is included in different
domains.
I already did a few changes to the template so that it only includes
the [[Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Portugal with known
IDs]] in file pages.
This makes sure that the same template can be used for your issue 1.
and the issue 2. It also means that we can change the {{IGESPAR}},
{{SIPA}}, whatever, to have similar behaviour in file pages in order
to categorize in the same top-level category. I don't think there is
a problem to have a file both down the category tree and in a
over-arching category with all photos.
Best,
Gonçalo
2011/8/3 Nuno Tavares <nuno.tavares(a)wikimedia.pt
<mailto:nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt>>
Hello all,
I didn't quite get the beginning of this thread, but I have some
remarks
from what I understand. First of all, there seem to be two
issues here:
1. Organization issue: Having a category tree to allow browsing by
"ID-enabled" images (in WLM-PT we have linked commons categories
with
object ids whenever possible);
2. Convenience issue: Having a specific category for images of
country
objects to pass on to the jury, as a pool of candidates.
Jane, the unfortunate part is that I've been removing the
{{IGESPAR}}
template from all images I've found whenever there is a category
for the
"objects" in question (or one that I have created for that purpose).
That's what makes sense to me, anyway, but doesn't invalidate having
whatever top-categories - in this case, "Cultural heritage
monuments in
Portugal with known IDs" (it would aggregate
{{IGESPAR}}+{{DRAC-RAM}}+{{DRAM-RAA}} then, although I'm
(lazily) using
Category:IGESPAR for that.
Lodewijk, complementing, the country-specific category could be
fetched
from the parameters passed to the form, right? I believe we already
agreed on passing an ID and a Country.
Susana, I actually believe we should categorize a lot! See:
- Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011, for those who want to
dig into
*all* images from *all* contries - like Europeana's Art Noveau Juri;
- Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal, for Portuguese
Juri;
- Imóveis_de_Interesse_Público_in_Lisbon (replace "Imóveis de
Interesse
Público" and "Lisbon" accordingly) to keep up with the current
category
structure, which is IGESPAR related.
- Campo_Pequeno - which is the building category;
- IGESPAR - inherited from {{IGESPAR}} (and due to my laziness,
DRAC-RAM
and DRAC-RAA) which is used to tag an ID into the picture (or
category).
- Up to now, I'm expected that the categories get automatically
placed,
either from the form, or a post-bot-run. Eventually there are
others:
manually inserted, like "Palaces in Portugal", and those related to
geolocalization that don't interfere with anything, I believe.
In short, Jane and Susana, I wouldn't mix {{IGESPAR}} and
{{Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal}} purposes. The
former
is for keeping a link between the lists, and the second is for
the Juri.
You can imagine how the bottom of the page will look, though :)
Béria, just a note regarding SIPA and IGESPAR: only IGESPAR's
objects
have some kind of protection; this means SIPA's shouldn't have
designations like "Monumento Nacional". In the end, roughly, all
SIPA
are "unprotected".
This also means the everyone relying to IGESPAR id should be
clarified
by now: the monument ID is a specific WLM id. Its range will
dictate to
which it refers to: IGESPAR, Azores, Madeira or SIPA.
--
Nuno Tavares
Wikimedia Portugal
http://www.wikimedia.pt
Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade
de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso
o que
estamos a fazer.
Participe também:
http://www.wikimedia.pt
Em 03-08-2011 09:53, Lodewijk escreveu:
There should be country specific subcategories
there indeed -
you are
correct :) I suggest putting this category /in/
your country
specific
contest template. Not sure if someone already
designed one
actually to
be re-used. Besides that I believe there are some
temporary
categories
involved, like "needs to be included in the
lists" etc which
involved
more manual work but can be done by anyone who
knows Wikipedia.
Best,
Lodewijk
2011/8/3 Susana Morais <susana.morais(a)wikimedia.pt
<mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt>
<mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
<mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt>>>
Hello all,
I have some questions. For the WLM competition we will ask the
participant to upload the photo with the ID number (he has
previously seen in that great list we have in our site
:)). Then the
photo will be automatically (?) tagged under
a specific
sub-cat in
this
category
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments…,
right? Do the categories need to be more
specific for the
competition (this doenst mean we shouldnt be thinking how to
organize them better after the wlm)? I think that it is easier
during the WLM to have all photos in the competition in
one simple
category (easier for the jury).
Susana
2011/8/3 Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com> <mailto:jane023@gmail.com
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>>
Béria,
The key here is the word "monument". In order for a WLM
participant to upload a photo based on local
instructions, he
needs an ID number. Presumeably he/she
has found this
number
from your wonderful Portuguese map with
ID coordinates
on your
WLM website, am I right?
In the Netherlands, some (not ALL) Rijksmonuments have the
number physically on a brown plaque on the building
itself. What
do you call this number? I assume you do
not call it
"Cultural
heritage monument number". In order
to match it to
either the
IGESPAR or SIPA numbers you will need to
have a key in
the ID
number, won't you?
I noticed the following situation:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Campo_Pequeno_Lisboa
is tagged with the template
{{IGESPAR|74571|type=IIP}}
I would therefore expect to see this category have photo's
tagged with this same number, but for example,
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Campo_Pequeno_lisbon.JPG
is not tagged.
I would expect the category to be placed in a category
called
"Category:IGESPAR objects in Lisbon
(district)", but I
see the
category "Category:Imóveis de
Interesse Público in Lisbon
(district)" instead.
I suppose the template sub-tag "IIP" stands for
"Imóveis de
Interesse Público", so I get that
you have broken your
designations down by type, but I am curious how you will
instruct the jury to choose foto's if the photo's
themselves are
not tagged. Though my Portuguese is
pretty bad, I
think the
(spectacular) pictures of the bulls
themselves, which
are also
in that category are not
"Imóveis".
Jane
2011/8/3 Béria Lima <beria.lima(a)wikimedia.pt
<mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>
<mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
<mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>>
We have lists outside IGESPAR. The IGESPAR one has 4K
monuments, the SIPA one almost 40K. We are using both.
_____
/Béria Lima/
Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
(351) 963 953 042
/Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a
possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de
todo o
conhecimento humano. É isso o que
estamos a fazer./
On 3 August 2011 08:39, Jane Darnell
<jane023(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com>
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>> wrote:
Béria,
Maybe I am just too unfamiliar with the
technicalities,
but my feeling would be yes,
stuff all 4
categories into
"IGESPAR objects in Portugal
with known IDs".
Under this
toplevel, there should be for
example, a
category called
"Monumentos Nacionais with
known IDs".
Is there a problem with the WLM database that
you
can't
have subcategories for the
top-level ones? Or
do you
mean that you have lists outside
of IGESPAR?
Jane
2011/8/2 Béria Lima <beria.lima(a)wikimedia.pt
<mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>
<mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
<mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>>
Portugal can't use a single name. We have
4 types
of
monuments ( see here:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_in_Port…
).
We can create 4 "main categories", but
they
would
still need to be under a
"Cultural Heritage in
Portugal" category.
_____
/Béria Lima/
Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
(351) 963 953 042
/Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer
pessoa a
possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao
somatório de
todo o conhecimento humano. É
isso o que
estamos a
fazer./
On 2 August 2011 11:11, Kilian Kluge
<kilian(a)k-kluge.de
<mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de>
<mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de
<mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de>>> wrote:
Hi Jane,
in Germany the trouble is that in
every state
there are different names
for
essentially the
same thing. Some just
have
"Kulturdenkmale"
(cultural heritage
monuments), some have
"Baudenkmale" ("building heritage
monuments"),
some have both, some
differentiate
between three
or four categories...
It's already a bit
confusing on de-wp, where as a result
the lists
for each state have
different naming
schemes,
and I doubt that it'd
be helpful to
carry this
to Commons.
Kilian
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Jane
Darnell
<jane023(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com> <mailto:jane023@gmail.com
<mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>>
wrote:
Hi all,
I am sending out a new message,
since I feel
this issue is pretty
important and
impacts a
lot of Wikipedia
projects. The
other issues
that Bas addressed
also need
follow up, but
let's tackle
these categories first.
This is the list of categories as
they stand
today on Commons in
the top level
category
(see the email from
Bas):
Category:Cultural heritage
monuments in
Andorra with known
IDs
Category:Cultural heritage
monuments in
Austria with known
IDs
Category:Onroerend erfgoed with
known IDs
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
> Brussels with known IDs
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
> Estonia (with known IDs)
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
Hesse with known ID
Category:Rijksmonumenten with
known IDs
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
> Portugal with known IDs
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
> Romania with known IDs
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
> Spain with known IDs
Category:Cultural
heritage
monuments in
Wallonia with known
IDs
I think only the Belgians and the
Dutch have
chosen their names
well, because
they are
using the terms that
are covered
by law in
their country. The
other
categories should
be renamed to reflect
the legal
term in
those countries. My
reasons are as
follows:
1) The term
"Cultural heritage
monument" is
not defined anywhere,
in any country's
wikipedia.
2) We are using a formal
designation that
has been assigned by
a government
agency and
is covered by the
European Council's
international law on cultural
property. In
order to refer to the
proper
designation, we
need the formal name
of the
designation.
3) The sub categories
are going to
have
native names anyway,
so why have a
strangely
named top-level
category that no one
understands (including
English-speakers)?
4) When we make
interwiki links to
these
things we should be
consistent
across all
countries.
I noticed a confusing situation
has already
occurred in the
German Wikipedia,
where the
top level category
for the Austrian
monuments is "Kategorie:Liste
(Kulturdenkmale in Österreich)",
when I
fully expected it to
be
"Kategorie:Denkmalgeschütztes
Objekte". On
Commons I would
expect
"Category:Denkmalgeschütztes
Objekte
with
known IDs", and
in the English
Wikipedia, I
named it
"Category:Denkmalgeschütztes Objekte".
Jane
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