Hello,
In WLM since 2019 we are totally transparent about the jury members that
help on montage, and usually thank them for their precious help at our blog
post about the competition. Since last year, we have been exchanging jurors
with Tuscany and Wiki Classics, and had a lot of help from Brazil. This
year we are also exchanging jurors with Brazil. I must say it's a total PIA
to find jurors for this kind of competition, so we generally gave up with
finding professional photographers (which had a lot of trouble to engage
with the technical part of this, anyway) and are doing this with Commoners,
Wikipedians and punctually with "outsiders", which may be photographers or
not - could be data journalists, ppl from the academia, etc. - to
experiment. A global bank of jurors would be a precious asset.
After the last round in montage, the organizers do the final selection,
using the montage results as a starting point. This is to avoid
repetitions, bad quality photos, previously undetected copyvios, out of
scope photos, and so on.
I absolutely support transparency in the selection process, especially
given past situations where corruption, game of marked cards and schemes to
get $$ out of WL competitions were at least apparent - As long as it does
not hinder the selection process, and does not create additional
bureaucracy.
Best,
Paulo
effe iets anders <effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia quarta,
30/09/2020 à(s) 23:49:
Hi all,
After getting feedback both on- and offlist, we arrived at the
following: the Montage developers will make a page available to each jury
coordinator, that they can copy and paste to a wiki page to share their
process settings easily. That way it's easy to be transparent. At some
point in the future, we will likely make this public by default.
I do express the expectation that each national coordinator will
publish their jury members (either real life name or username). It may well
be that we ask you to submit this list of jurors when you submit your
nominees (although we will not publish it on your behalf, that is your
responsibility).
Warmly,
Lodewijk
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:01 PM effe iets anders <
effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> All great suggestions.
>
> In the past the WLM international team has also maintained a database
> of jurors to be backup. We had very little requests in recent years though,
> probably because so many people know organizers form other countries. If
> you're stuck, I would suggest to either ask someone you already know, or to
> ask this list. Most likely you have a response within 48h. But don't wait
> until the last minute, if you can avoid it. Jurors typically like a week to
> get things done (if the country isn't huge).
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 3:48 AM Rebecca O'Neill <
> rebeccanineil(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Yaroslav, I will send you a separate email now!
>>
>> Having the WLE team setting up a pool of jurors like that was so
>> helpful Anton. Yes, I could find the names and email other WLM organisers,
>> but this system took that extra work away from me - which was hugely
>> appreciated, especially in our first year!
>>
>> On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 11:45, Anton Protsiuk <
>> anton.protsiuk(a)wikimedia.org.ua> wrote:
>>
>>> The international WLE team this year has tried to create a database
>>> of jurors from different countries for local contests. We had a Google form
>>> for these purposes (
https://forms.gle/Pj61adjgYiE6Jn687) & asked
>>> local teams whether they needed help with jury.
>>> We haven't estimated the results yet, since the local selection
>>> process is still ongoing, but it seems to have worked well.
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> Anton Protsiuk
>>> Project Manager at Wikimedia Ukraine
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If WLM Ireland is in September I can help as a juror. If it is in
>>>> October this could be more difficult because I am also in the jury for
>>>> Russia, and there is typically a lot of work there.
>>>>
>>>> Generally, asking around (may be also on Commons) typically helps.
>>>> In the past I have been on jury for a few different countries. Somebody
>>>> would just approach me and ask.If I can make it, I agree.
>>>>
>>>> Yaroslav
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:50 AM Mārtiņš Bruņenieks <
>>>> martinsb(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Rebecca!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have organized multiple WLM/WLE editions in Latvia. We have used
>>>>> Montage in most of them.
>>>>> After experiencing problems with jurors dropping out or being
>>>>> known at the last moment, we created new Wikimedia accounts just for
the
>>>>> jury and sent the passwords to them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Montage allows some editing of jurors after the round has started
>>>>> but results can be unexpected.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mārtiņš
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 2:13 AM Rebecca O'Neill <
>>>>> rebeccanineil(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Lodewijk,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a slight aside to this, and perhaps something that might help
>>>>>> ease some of the worries around judging processes in other
countries, would
>>>>>> it be an idea to have a pool of international WLM Wikimedia
jurors that
>>>>>> could help judge other countries? Here in Ireland we have done
this with
>>>>>> Malta, exchanging jurors over the past few years, and for our
first WLE
>>>>>> this year we had Axel from Sweden be on our jury. You get the
benefit of a
>>>>>> fellow Wikimedian who understands the whole process, and who
could bring
>>>>>> some different expertise or perspective to a country's WLM.
Having someone
>>>>>> who is completely unfamiliar with your local built heritage means
they can
>>>>>> assess the images with a different take than someone who knows
them very
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After 6 years, we have found it harder to recruit a jury from
our
>>>>>> pool of active Wikimedians and relevant expert judges from the
arts and
>>>>>> architecture sectors in Ireland. I know I would really appreciate
it if we
>>>>>> could "borrow" a juror from another Wikimedia group (in
the past we have
>>>>>> had some UK help with this too with jurors). We have suffered
from jurors
>>>>>> dropping out of the process at the last minute or after judging
has begun
>>>>>> (which results in having to restart rounds in Montage), generally
it has
>>>>>> been those who are not Wikimedians who perhaps did not fully
understand the
>>>>>> commitment when they agreed. Not only is it frustrating, it's
very
>>>>>> stressful. It may be less of an issue this year, given that the
deadline
>>>>>> for submitting to the international jury won't be at the end
of October.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope that helps clarify some of the issues some of the smaller
>>>>>> countries can face over the years of WLM!
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Rebecca
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 23:57, effe iets anders <
>>>>>> effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Alexander,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the status of Montage requests: I suggest that you
start
>>>>>>> a separate thread on that, and would like to leave this to
the maintainers
>>>>>>> to respond to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for publishing the settings: I was imagining some kind of
>>>>>>> log-style publication, not a near write-up. This won't be
pretty, but it
>>>>>>> will allow people to figure out how it worked out in
practice. If we follow
>>>>>>> a logical naming convention, people should be able to puzzle
it together.
>>>>>>> Ideally, the national organizers also publish their process
on the website,
>>>>>>> but this log would be a way to verify that. But I accept your
note that we
>>>>>>> may need to add a context explaining that more process may
happen
>>>>>>> before/after this tool is used.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lodewijk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 3:17 PM Alexander Tsirlin <
>>>>>>> altsirlin(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Lodewijk,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the
>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round
that the national
>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there
should be an opt-out
>>>>>>>> for this year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is unrealistic, because jury process may involve
several
>>>>>>>> campaigns that are later merged together (in Russia, we
do it all the time
>>>>>>>> in order to meet your submission deadline). Moreover,
some of the photos
>>>>>>>> can be accepted for the next round within Montage but
excluded later on if
>>>>>>>> we find that they do not depict cultural heritage. The
end result is that
>>>>>>>> any number you take from Montage will not match the
number of photos that
>>>>>>>> we publish (e.g., as a short-list). This will only lead
to confusion and
>>>>>>>> won't be of any use for anyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since you mentioned Montage, let me also ask when two
important
>>>>>>>> pull requests, which were done by one of our team
members, are going to be
>>>>>>>> merged into the code:
>>>>>>>>
https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/169
>>>>>>>>
https://github.com/hatnote/montage/pull/175
>>>>>>>> These are really, really important fixes. Without them I
would
>>>>>>>> have a problem creating new Montage campaigns in
October.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2020 11:49 PM, effe iets anders wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> over the past years, we have had various requests to
encourage
>>>>>>>> national organizers to be transparent in their judging
processes and who
>>>>>>>> sits on their jury. Most of the national organizers are
currently
>>>>>>>> transparent about this already. In the past weeks/month,
more conversation
>>>>>>>> around this has continued with some concerns (valid or
not) on certain jury
>>>>>>>> processes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In this light, the international team intends to
institute a
>>>>>>>> new expectation for national organizers, namely to
publish the members of
>>>>>>>> their jury (be it their username or real life name) at
some point. We have
>>>>>>>> not figured out the practical details yet, but I can
imagine that while we
>>>>>>>> encourage publication on the website, we would ask
national organizers to
>>>>>>>> add a list of jury members to their submission to the
international jury -
>>>>>>>> which we then will publish as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We also intend to publish by default the settings of the
>>>>>>>> montage jury tool, and the number of photos in each round
that the national
>>>>>>>> competitions have used. We're debating whether there
should be an opt-out
>>>>>>>> for this year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We will of course apply at least the same level of
transparency
>>>>>>>> to the international jury.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Before we make this decision, I would like to ask for
feedback
>>>>>>>> on this, and whether there are edge cases we should
consider where
>>>>>>>> such transparency would be harmful. I'll take 1 week
to gather some
>>>>>>>> feedback on this, and then we'll make a final
decision. You can respond to
>>>>>>>> this on this mailing list, or privately to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>>> Lodewijk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> PhD in Digital Media
>>>>>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland
>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.ie>
>>>>>> She/Her
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>>
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>> PhD in Digital Media
>> Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland <http://wikimedia.ie>
>> She/Her
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