Dear all,
I agree on the sensitivity of the implementation but - as always - I
also believe that it can be mitigated (at most extent) with proper media
care. And, anyway, WLM is not about politics. Right?
As for the lists, let's just not forget that computers are there to
solve problems. The same way we have set up an infrastructure for a
purpose, we can extend it (and keep extending it). In the portuguese
platform, we had this database browser:
After expanding the filter box, you will see there is a filter called
"Programme". I can easily imagine having a "Programmme" named
"Foreign
legacy buildings" or, as Gulbenkian Foundation called it:
Heritage of Portuguese Influence
This site should give us confidence that the political sensitivitiness
can be overcomed. This is one of the biggest/best-known and influencial
cultural foundation in Portugal.
Please have a look at the map. I'm not even interested in the
official/local classification/protection (is it a monument, or not), but
if we can have Gulbenkian as a sponsor running for a special prize
(read: Programme) and have our fellows PALOPs[1] being able to
participate - as you know, most in Africa, which are barely (if) running
their own - that would be extremely great.
[1]
Hi WSC,
First of all: I of course know barely a thing about how
this imperialistic contest (for the lack of a better word) would land or
how sensitive it would be. What I do understand from my contacts (but
those are most likely much less extensive than yours) is that it would
most likely be unpopular with our (government) partners in those
countries, and indeed not so much with the potential participants. That
has significant downsides (we need those partners for the local contest)
so it would basically come down to a choice of focus whether we prefer
to have national contests or rather an imperialistic one. But in the end
I'd like to leave this call to the local teams in question (particularly
the India, Bangladesh, Canada and USA (and South Africa?) teams).
When it comes to the list: although it sounds easier to organize, asking
people to make up their own definition brings in a whole lot of problems
of its own. I would like to refer to this essay
<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments/Philosophy>about
the reasons why WLM is successful. Reasons include that it is simple
(people know what to look for: clear definition) and that their photos
will be used on Wikipedia (for that we need the lists as well; and more
important, whatever is on that list needs to be there because of a
neutral and verifiable definition: usually a government definition). It
is perfectly possible to organize a contest with a wider scope, and with
a more vague definition, but we would be talking about a different style
of contest with different communication requirements. Wiki Loves
Monuments is federative in structure (country based) and works from this
neutral standard, even though there is a large degree of flexibility how
to achieve this standard.
This list structure is embedded in the contest concept to a large
(although not infinite) degree. It helps us use the tools we use because
through these predefined definitions and lists people can identify which
of the buildings is on the list through a simple identifier. This makes
the upload form more simple, and helps us to re-use the images in
articles. It also helps us categorizing on Commons and adding geotags
and other metadata when that information is available or becomes
available at a later stage. It also reduces the chance that people will
photograph un-monumental buildings (their own house) and makes it that
way easier to do the judging.
Finally I can't mention it often enough that I prefer to have national
contests (including the very UK itself!) with all the impact connected
to it than an effort to have an extra supracontest - if one would have
to choose. But I guess you are yourself the best judge to see if this
would be detrimental in any way at all to the WLM-uk.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
2012/5/17 WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers(a)gmail.com
<mailto:werespielchequers@gmail.com>>
Hi Lodewijk,
I can see that there is a risk that a UK funded prize for images of
monuments left over from the era of British rule could potentially
be controversial. But we are a global movement and we can include
people from India and elsewhere in the design and judging - I
discussed this at the UK AGM with a British Gujurati and he thought
it could be an interesting project. But I'll bcc bounce this by some
of our colleagues in India and see what they think.
As for needing a database or a list, I'm not sure that is so
essential. I'd like to see what happens when we ask people to
photograph what they consider to be the monuments of their area.
There should be less difficulty launching the scheme, and who knows
we may get some overlooked gems.
WSC.
On 11 May 2012 10:35, Lodewijk <lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org
<mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>> wrote:
Hi WSC,
Hi think there definitely will be some 'sensitivities' and I'd
be personally very careful with awarding such prize unless all
countries involved have an active community that actively
support such prize (and of course only for those countries that
participate anyway). However, no matter how you do it - somehow
you will have to define what is a monument under whatever
definition. Making up our own definition is very tricky and not
something I'd suggest unless as a last resort.
Lets try to focus on the model that we know that works as much
as possible and scaling the regular contest to countries - note
that even for the UK at this point it is unclear whether it can
participate (as I understand the current status) simply because
there are no volunteers who are willing to pull the contest off.
I much rather see UK, India, USA and Bangladesh participate as
individual countries than that we have some extra category about
an Empire (with all its sensitivities and PR risks) and not have
those countries participate 'for real'.
Best,
Lodewijk
2012/5/11 WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers(a)gmail.com
<mailto:werespielchequers@gmail.com>>
I'm assuming it refers to stuff built in those countries
whilst they were part of the Portuguese empire. Much of that
will be well out of copyright as the Portuguese Empire
peaked centuries ago.
I think it would be sensible to do something similar for the
British Empire, but with the slight issue that as the Empire
covered a quarter of the globe less than seventy years ago
there will be some stuff that is still in copyright.
I'll ask the UK chapter by cc if they'd be willing to fund a
prize for "monumental legacy of the British Empire" -
obviously there may be some sensitivities on this so any
suggestions as to how not to do this would be appreciated.
But potentially this could give a participation route for
people in large parts of the world that might not otherwise
be covered by WLM.
I'm thinking along the lines of:
No target database.
Anyone may enter.
Any image loaded to Commons in Sept 2012 would qualify,
provided it is of a building or monument built during the
era of British rule in a former part of the British Empire.
Entry would be done by adding a hidden category to the
article [[:category:WLM 2012 - monumental legacy of the
British Empire]]
I guess the UK itself should be excluded.
WSC
On 11 May 2012 09:39, Cristian Consonni
<kikkocristian(a)gmail.com <mailto:kikkocristian@gmail.com>>
wrote:
2012/5/10 Nicolas VIGNERON <vigneron.nicolas(a)gmail.com
<mailto:vigneron.nicolas@gmail.com>>:
2012/5/10 Vicenç Riullop <vriullop(a)hotmail.com
<mailto:vriullop@hotmail.com>>:
> These is very interesting, Nuno. I am curious
about
Portuguese monuments in
> Espanha and Itália :-) Is the registrant
official?
Say, a reliable source?
> You could create an international list of
Portuguese
monuments abroad (maybe
> Brazil is a special case). Then it could be
shared
in other languages,
regardless if there is any special prize or not.
Vicenç
There is more or less the same thing for France.
Some territories where once inside the French
colonial empire but
are
not anymore. In the meantime (roughly beetween
1840
and 1940), some
monuments were officialy protected. Obviously,
they're no more
official nowadays (except if the local
gouvernement
decide to
re-protect them by itself).
Eg.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_monuments_historiques_des_d%C3%A9par…
I'm not getting what this "Portuguese Empire monuments"
means...
It means that these monuments are under the control of
the Portuguese
embassy? Are we free to photograph them?
In Italy, for Italian monuments (sic), one should ask a
permission to
take a photo of a monument and release to the public
(for instance
with a CC-BY-SA). This permission can be granted by local
Sovrintendenze (the government). Is the situation for
the 4 monuments
indicated above in some way different?
Cristian
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