"someone getting banned from a website over bad conduct issue" - Since the
WMF has not clarified what that "bad conduct" has been, I wonder what was
the educative value of that. Seems to have been only purely disruptive, and
opened the door for all kinds of assumptions, and offwiki harassment of all
"guilty parts" of anyone's choice.
Of the parts purportedly involved in this: One editor banned for one year,
another editor not contributing to the project since the scandal began; and
the Wikimedia flagship project in severe disruption - that's what this
absolutely disastrous WMF intervention managed to achieve.
And "secret trials punishing people who don't even know they're being
accused, not of what they are being accused" is not hyperbole, is fact. And
I don't need this recent issue with Fram to state that. I've personally
dealt with at least two situations which were factually that.
Best,
Paulo
Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia sábado, 15/06/2019
à(s) 20:32:
I didn't put my words in your mouth -- I quoted
your own words precisely,
and the implication you were trying to make is obvious; so respectfully,
please refrain from gaslighting here. I simply suggested dropping the
hyperbole of "star chambers and kangaroo courts", "secret trials
punishing
people who don't know they're being accused' and "very basic
principle[s]
of Human Rights and dignity" over someone getting banned from a website
over bad conduct issues. You need not reply -- I'm done with this portion
of the conversation.
On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 1:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have never said that this is a human rights
violation, so please don't
put your words on my mouth.
I have said that the general principles of equality, right to fair trial,
not having ones honor damaged by baseless accusations, etc. which are
present at the UDHR are being forgotten here.
Of course you may argue that since the WMF is a private organization,
they
are free to engage in this kind of secret trials,
star chambers and
kangaroo courts at will. As others already stated, the matter here is not
if they can, but if they should be engaging on those schemes, as they are
now.
Best,
Paulo
A sábado, 15 de jun de 2019, 18:39, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester(a)gmail.com>
escreveu:
> There is no "very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity" to be
free
> from the presumption of guilt by others.
You may be confusing Article
11
of the
UHDR, but this applies explicitly only to "penal offenses."
Unless
Fram is getting locked up in prison for his
actions, let's drop the
absurd
hyperbole that this is somehow a human rights
violation.
Dan Rosenthal
On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 11:35 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulosperneta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> People shouldn't be going with any random option, but rather presume
the
> > innocence of others unless guilt is proven by some legit process.
> > It seems that this very basic principle of Human Rights and dignity
is
> > being forgotten.
> > There is not the least appearance of due process happening there, but
> that
> > has not stopped people from finding themselves their guilty part of
> > election, using their own bias to evaluate the case.
> > Including some Wikipedia related social network accounts that should
be
>
acting more responsible and wiser than joining the rabble in the
offwiki
> harassment of their guilty part of choice.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> escreveu no dia sábado, 15/06/2019 à(s)
17:15:
>
> > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 00:04, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > If you really think Fram's framing of events here is even
plausible,
> > > >
> > >
> > > What you are calling Fram's framing appears to be a the WMF's
version
> >
of events as told to fram. The WMF does look slightly better if you
> > remember that T&S arw trying to improve behaviour through threat of
> > blocks not file a diff heavy arbcom case.
> >
> >
> > >let alone the story
> >
> > Given that the other versions of "the story" are T&S's PR
waffle or
> > conspiracy theories it understandable that people are going to go
with
> > the option that at least gives them
something to work from.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > geni
> >
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