Peter
Putting your brand on a project that is visibly failing also sends out a
message, to the world at large. Is that a message you want to broadcast?
JPS
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:32 PM Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a
message to all
volunteers that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day.
Is that a message we want to broadcast?
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk
Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand
system for our 2030 goals]
Hello,
Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It did
not turn out as expected. That‘s okay, the movement should try out thing
from time to time.
But this wiki should not be seen as an eternal obligation to be kept.
Kind regards
Ziko
Samuel Klein <meta.sj(a)gmail.com> schrieb am Di. 16. Apr. 2019 um 23:56:
Jennifer -- as you say, there is a contradiction
here in the self-image
and
internal narrative of the projects and movement.
A classic branding
issue
;)
* On the one hand, we lack clear, consistent language to talk about
topical
subprojects (what do you call 'the Current
Events specialists on the
major
language Wikpiedias'? some obvious names
have already been taken)
* On the other, for the few Names that we assign to Projects, we
overspecify what they mean ('Wikinews is original news reporting or
synthesis, done on a
wikinews.org site').
We propagate this confusion of identity to those outside the projects
trying to understand them; which in turn leads to misunderstanding in the
world at large, and fewer potential collaborators joining the projects:
I was recently at a gathering of international fact-checkers. They
all prized Wikipedia as a model for what rapid collective editing can
accomplish; assumed wikinews and wikitribune were the best efforts to
date
of applying that to current events; and began an
enthusiastic discussion
about how to do it better. When I pointed out that Wikipedias did
exactly
what they were discussing, for the most popular
news, this was startling
and satisfying to them. However as there is no central cafe or village
pump for current events editors, and what portals do exist are impossible
to find for all but the most persistent, it is not obvious how to engage
with them...
This is a challenge of naming + identity that really holds us back: ways
for people to form groups, projects, message streams; and channel,
advertise, amplify, polish them; use them for flash projects and
coalescence, for awareness and thanks. We have tried many small steps in
this direction but have never made groups or hashtags work as simple,
functional tools of alignment.
SJ
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
jennifer.pryorsummers(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Andrew
It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies
that
> make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH) are a
> poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand,
Wikipedia
is
> a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem inconsistent to
me.
> However, I conclude from what you're
saying that the best way forward
is
to
> fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia. Is that right?
>
> JPS
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <andrew.lih(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > jennifer.pryorsummers(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language)
Wikipedia
>
seems
> > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent with
its
> > encyclopediac mission: perhaps
that's the reason. Maybe the WMF
should
> > > sort out the demarcation issues.
> > >
> >
> > Jennifer,
> >
> > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade and the
vast
> > majority of the community has converged
on the conclusion that
Wikinews
>
hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental
properties.
> >
> > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of the truth
> given
> > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing direct
> > observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following policies
that
> make
> > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline reporting:
> >
> > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research
> > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources
> > Wikipedia:V - verifiability
> > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism
> >
> > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience this
mismatch
and
realize it is a poor fit.
However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we should
celebrate
> the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that evolve minute
to
> minute (oftentimes second to second) to best
reflect the world as we
know
> it. Embrace that new, live, constantly
updated snapshot of reality –
the
Wikipedia
article.
If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the origins of
Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look:
[1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html
> >
> > -Andrew
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
--
Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529
4266
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>