I see no reason to shut down projects, nor to tell participants to stop
collaborating on X in the spirit of a Wiki.
I see a great reason not to limit conversation about what a project around
X *could be* to the current state of a project that has that domain name.
There is plenty of energy around using wikis for news, or wikis for
courses, which is absolutely not captured by any of our current Projects or
projects.
We need
* Flexible ways to modify, fork, and experiment with names and projects
* Flexible ways to redirect, merge, and split projects and namespaces (as
half-successfully attempted with the incubator) without losing history or
editability
SJ
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 10:41 AM Yaroslav Blanter <ymbalt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Indeed, I am not a fan of Wikinews and I do not
particularly see the
project as in any way successful. However, if the project is shut down
against the will of the community (I now mean the Wikinews community, or
perhaps even specifically the English Wikinews community), I will ask
myself whether Wikivoyage (I am active in the Russian Wikivoyage, where we
have a couple of dozen active users) could also be shut down one day
against the will of the community, just because we are not successful
competing with the brands like Lonely Planet, DK, or Michelin, for example.
Cheers
Yaroslav
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a
message to all
volunteers that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day.
Is that a message we want to broadcast?
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk
Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand
system for our 2030 goals]
Hello,
Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It
did
not turn out as expected. That‘s okay, the
movement should try out thing
from time to time.
But this wiki should not be seen as an eternal obligation to be kept.
Kind regards
Ziko
Samuel Klein <meta.sj(a)gmail.com> schrieb am Di. 16. Apr. 2019 um 23:56:
Jennifer -- as you say, there is a contradiction
here in the self-image
and
internal narrative of the projects and movement.
A classic branding
issue
;)
* On the one hand, we lack clear, consistent language to talk about
topical
subprojects (what do you call 'the Current
Events specialists on the
major
> language Wikpiedias'? some obvious names have already been taken)
> * On the other, for the few Names that we assign to Projects, we
> overspecify what they mean ('Wikinews is original news reporting or
> synthesis, done on a
wikinews.org site').
>
> We propagate this confusion of identity to those outside the projects
> trying to understand them; which in turn leads to misunderstanding in
the
> world at large, and fewer potential
collaborators joining the projects:
> I was recently at a gathering of international fact-checkers.
They
all
prized Wikipedia as a model for what rapid collective editing can
accomplish; assumed wikinews and wikitribune were the best efforts to
date
> of applying that to current events; and began an enthusiastic
discussion
about how
to do it better. When I pointed out that Wikipedias did
exactly
> what they were discussing, for the most popular news, this was
startling
> and satisfying to them. However as there is
no central cafe or village
> pump for current events editors, and what portals do exist are
impossible
> to find for all but the most persistent, it
is not obvious how to
engage
> with them...
>
> This is a challenge of naming + identity that really holds us back:
ways
> for people to form groups, projects, message
streams; and channel,
> advertise, amplify, polish them; use them for flash projects and
> coalescence, for awareness and thanks. We have tried many small steps
in
> this direction but have never made groups or
hashtags work as simple,
> functional tools of alignment.
>
> SJ
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> jennifer.pryorsummers(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Andrew
> >
> > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies
> that
> > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH)
are a
> poor
fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand,
Wikipedia
is
> a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem inconsistent to
me.
> However, I conclude from what you're
saying that the best way forward
is
to
> fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia. Is that right?
>
> JPS
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <andrew.lih(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > jennifer.pryorsummers(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language)
Wikipedia
> > > seems
> > > > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent
with
its
> > encyclopediac mission: perhaps
that's the reason. Maybe the WMF
should
> > > sort out the demarcation issues.
> > >
> >
> > Jennifer,
> >
> > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade and the
vast
> > majority of the community has converged
on the conclusion that
Wikinews
> > > hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental
> properties.
> > >
> > > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of the
truth
> > given
> > > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing
direct
> >
observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following policies
that
> make
> > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline reporting:
> >
> > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research
> > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources
> > Wikipedia:V - verifiability
> > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism
> >
> > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience this
mismatch
> > and
> > > realize it is a poor fit.
> > >
> > > However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we should
> > celebrate
> > > the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that evolve
minute
> to
> > > minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the world as
we
> know
> > > it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of reality
–
the
> Wikipedia article.
>
> If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the origins of
> Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look:
> [1]
>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html
>
>
> > -Andrew
> > _______________________________________________
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4266
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