A parish book, with all records signed by the priest (and witnesses), and reviewed by the Diocesis, is a primary source, and immensely more reliable than any secondary sources quoting it.
As we say in Portugal, who tells a story adds something. I'm pretty much sure there is a similar saying in English as well.
There is not any reason that I can foresee why a secondary source should be used instead of a primary source in those situations.
Paulo
2018-05-12 6:49 GMT+01:00 Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net:
Maybe there is, but maybe they are in fact conceptually similar, and have similar problems. You will have to clarify: In what way are primary sources "as in history" more reliable and verifiable? Also, how does "as in history" distinguish them from other primary sources produced by the subject? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 10:25 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
Isn't there an endemic confusion in the Wikipedias between what are primary sources (produced by the subject) and primary sources (original sources, as in History)? While the first should be avoided at all costs, the second should be preferred over secondary sources most of the time, as they generally are more reliable and verifiable. I keep seeing this confusion in Wikipedias, all the time, with disastrous results on the quality of the articles.
Paulo
2018-05-11 5:49 GMT+01:00 Cameron cameron@cameron11598.net:
Well audio recordings or video recordings of oral histories and
traditions
come to mind. However I'm not sure how comfortable I am with an encyclopedia using such sources.
Now as an aspiring historian (Only one semester left on my degree), I use primary sources quite often for papers, and projects however those are generally frowned upon for Wikipedia; mainly because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an academic journal. Good encyclopedias are typically sourced from secondary sources, and ocassionaly tertiary sources.
Now compiling a repository of such orally transmitted histories and traditions would be an amazing idea for a new project in my opinion. My personal thought on this issue is keeping our current verifiability and notability requirements is a good idea. In some areas I think we include far too much (fan cruft anyone?).
- Cameron C.
Cameron11598
---- On Thu, 10 May 2018 21:34:15 -0700 peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote ----
If not written, how would they be referenced and verified? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not written.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for
spammers
and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved invitation.
If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be
made
at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask
them
to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article accordingly based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or whatever else have you types of information. If our references are
flawed,
the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not "correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we
do
not second-guess, dispute, or correct them.
Todd
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people
wanting
to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone
without
any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to
fail.
Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not
to
remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing
knowledge. I
think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready
to
do
that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia
when
we opened editing to anybody.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite
of
notability and verifiability requirements, Without the
verifiability
requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are
things
that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer
evidence,
and
where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is
intangible,
the
authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means
track
record and proof of identity. This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see
it
as
possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a
reliable
source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying
the
credibility we have. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
notability and verifiability are important, every culture and
language
has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture
manage
successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the
western
styles
were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is
how
do
we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect
them,
how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do
is
not
the only.
There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our
current
systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the citations
from
books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and
value
alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the
question
is
do
we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the
sum
of
all
knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current
knowledge
networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts.
Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the
wikipedia
but
rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative knowledge streams
On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart etestart@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi,
I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where
a
member
of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though: https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10. 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4
There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a
movement
or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I
personally
do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal
impressions.
Cheers!
El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> escribió:
> Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to
produce
> reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints
opens
the
> doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to
remain
open
to
> anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust
alternatives.
Other
> projects may work around this problem, but would then probably
not
be
open > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way? > Cheers, > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@
lists.wikimedia.org]
On
> Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the
canon
of
> knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge." > > But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as
Wikipedia
> that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that
saying
that > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be
notable
enough,
> when different cultures use different ways to build their canon
of
> knowledge. > > JP > User:Amqui > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <
fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing
problems
> > > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, > > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will
never
be
able > > to correct it." > > > > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the
canon
of
> > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge. > > > > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does,
Wikipedia
will > > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and
other
bias
> issues > > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than
full
> correction > > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead. > > > > Fred > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
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