What are the non-Western methods?
בתאריך יום ו׳, 11 במאי 2018, 15:49, מאת Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com>om>:
thats the bias we dont accept knowledge as genuine or
authorative until its
been established by a westerner using western techniques. The whole point
of this discussion is that such a process invariably leads to bias, to
solve bias we need to shift our acceptance to alternative cultural methods
of establishing notability and verifiability.
The point is those non western methods are able to provide the same level
of authority as the currently accepted methods, that the to make the change
isnt as disastrous as is being said because we adopt the method appropriate
for the knowledge source rather than ignoring the knowledge until its
adapted to our way
On 11 May 2018 at 20:32, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
wrote:
Yes, and we use those books and journal articles
as sources. If they are
written by an acknowledged expert or are peer reviewed, we may consider
them reliable sources. I don’t think this is what this discussion is
about.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of FRED BAUDER
Sent: 11 May 2018 07:19
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
People write books and journal articles which incorporate oral
traditions.
The Bible is one example. That doesn't mean
we are going to remove the
material about Native Americans migrating through Beringia but that, if a
tribe's tradition is that it was always in the Americas, that should be
included in its article. Probably not enough to satisfy everyone...
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Southwood <peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Fri, 11 May 2018 00:34:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If not written, how would they be referenced and verified?
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing
sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider
sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not
written.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for
spammers
and
hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved
invitation.
If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be
made
at the source (literally) level. Just like rather
than "disputing" a
reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask
them
to correct, and then once they do we'll
update the article accordingly
based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what
sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or
whatever else have you types of information. If our references are
flawed,
> the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not
> "correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we
do
not
second-guess, dispute, or correct them.
Todd
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
> When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people
wanting
> > to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started
Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone
without
any authority to double check before it is
published? It is doomed to
fail.
> Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not
to
remove
notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those
requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing
knowledge. I
> think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready
to
> do
> > that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia
> when
> > we opened editing to anybody.
>
> > JP
>
> > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at
11:05 AM Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > > One Jar'Edo Wens
hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite
of
> > > notability and verifiability
requirements, Without the
verifiability
> requirement it would probably still be there.
Leaps of faith are
things
> > that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer
evidence,
> and
> > where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is
intangible,
> > the
> > > authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means
track
> > > record and proof of identity.
> > > This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see
it
as
>
possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a
reliable
> > source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying
the
> > credibility we have.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
> > > Behalf Of Gnangarra
> > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
> >
> > > notability and
verifiability are important, every culture and
> language
> > > has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture
> manage
> > > successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the
western
>
styles
> > were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is
how
> do
> > we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect
them,
> > > how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do
is
> not
> > > the only.
> >
> > > There are risks
in potential abuses of every system, even our
current
> systems have their faults and we assume good
faith in the citations
from
> > books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and
value
> > > alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the
question
> is
> > do
> > > we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the
sum
of
> all
> > knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current
knowledge
> > > networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts.
> >
> > > Maybe the
solution isnt in incorporating directly into the
wikipedia
> but
> > > rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative
> > > knowledge streams
> >
> >
> > > On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart
<etestart(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > > Hi,
> > >
> > > > I
posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where
a
member
> > of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though:
> >
https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.
> > 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4
>
> > There are many things that
can be addressed individually and as a
> movement
> > or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I
> personally
> > do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal
> impressions.
>
>
> > Cheers!
>
> > El jue., may. 10, 2018
10:27, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net>
> > escribió:
>
> > > Notability and
verifiability are important. They allow us to
produce
> > > > reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints
opens
> > the
> > > > > doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to
remain
>
open
> > to
> > > > anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust
alternatives.
> > Other
> > > > projects may work around this problem, but would then probably
not
be
> > > open
> > > > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way?
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Peter
> > >
> > > >
-----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@
lists.wikimedia.org]
> > On
> > > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01
> > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
> > > >
> > > >
> "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the
canon
of
> > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."
> > > >
> > > >
> But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > > that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that
> > saying
> > > > that
> > > > > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be
notable
> >
enough,
> > > > when different cultures use different ways to build their canon
of
> > > > > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > >
> JP
> > > > > User:Amqui
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > > > On Thu, May
10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <
> fredbaud(a)fairpoint.net>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
>
> > > > > > -----
Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
<wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing
problems
> >
> >
> > > > >
...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
> > > > > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will
never
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to correct it."
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the
canon
> of
> > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does,
> Wikipedia
> > > > will
> > > > > > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and
other
>
bias
> > > > issues
> > > > > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than
full
> >
> correction
> > > > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
> > >
> > > > Fred
> > >
> > >
> > > >
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