Indeed. We can all agree that it's OK for a lot of reason to have
differences in content between projects. What these differences are is a
separate discussion.
These differences often come up when discussing translation projects in
Wikipedia, and it's important to recognize them, but it's also important
not to treat them as a blocker or to let them be too much of a distraction.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2018-02-27 11:40 GMT+02:00 John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
WWII is not an universal truth. If some small country
claim the Nazis was
the good guys, then they are simply wrong.
Yes there are a lot of projects where information diverge, but usually that
is because someone added material that somehow seems more appropriate for
readers in that specific language. Although sometimes the content is really
wrong, and that happen on all projects.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi,
I have been involved in a translation project with professional
translators
translating featured articles of the English
Wikipedia. The choice for
featured articles was done because we expected that the content would not
be in dispute. We found different. Several of the translated articles
were
not accepted.. one of them was about World War
II.
I have also toyed with the idea of content that is not available in the
language of a Wikipedia (including English). Translation is one solution
an
other solution is generating basic information
from the data available at
Wikidata. The benefit is not only to our readers; they will at least be
informed up to a point and another benefit will be the quality of the
Wikipedia involved. One problem that will be fixed is the one of false
friends, when red links are linked to Wikidata, the information provided
will always be implicitly correct. Another possibility is to provide the
text of a sister Wikipedia.
We can do a better job by providing the sum of all knowledge that is
available to us.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 25 February 2018 at 15:16, John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
> There will although be articles in additions to a list of core
articles,
> but I don't try to advocate any of those
lists as the one and only
list.
> Actually I have toyed with an idea of
automatically create a list of
core
articles,
and that would identify important articles no matter if they
are
from a big western language or a minority
language.
The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles
about
the major cities and important philosophers, *the
main problem is that
minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the
contents
> in
> > a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a
form
of
> "cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural
appropriation.
>
> NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian"
sense: I
> mean cultures with a strong presence on the
web plus developed and
> flourishing Wikipedia communities.
>
> Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my
opinion,
> but I think a bottom-up process must be
followed, with the "bottom"
being
> > as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
> > Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a
minority
non-Western language would definitely fail project
scopes.
This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
wrote,
wikis in minority languages should focus on a
certain aspect of wiki
scope:
Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing
knowledge in a certain
language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
different
> languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
> knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take
precedence
> > in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger"
language.
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
> >
> > > Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and
appropriation.
> > Not
> > > > sure if it is possible to agree on this.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to
<vituzzu.wiki(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already
> expressed
> > > in a
> > > > > better way by others:
> > > > > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> > > > > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
> > verification
> > > > > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
> > > themselves;
> > > > > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects
cultural
> > > identity
> > > > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring
them
to a
> > different "weaker" cultures.
My usage of "weaker" adjective only
focuses
> > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
cultural
> > > identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> > > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > Wikipedians.
> > >
> > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to
digitalise
> > > texts
> > > > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
> vocabularies
> > > > (wiktionary).
> > > >
> > > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
> should
> > be
> > > > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native
speaker
of
> > > specific variant of Sicilian,
Sicilian is a secondary language to
any
> > of
> > > > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography
of
> > > > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian
while I can find thousands of books
> about
> > > him
> > > > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
> > > "literary"
> > > > language totally detached from reality: there's no
"encaustic
> painting"
> > > in
> > > > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent
one.
> >
>
> > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than
create,
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
> > >
> > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
> merely a
> > > > statement about my present experience about translators in
general.
> > > >
> > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
> > specialized
> > > > area is that there is a small community, and within this
community
> > some
> > > > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated
the
> >
> remaining
> > > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times
and
> > there
> > > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a
game
> of
> > > > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > > > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about
public
>
health
> > > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language
group,
> > but
> > > > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then
you
> > find
> > > > > a retired
> > > > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <
jmh649(a)gmail.com
> >
> > >
wrote:
> > > >
> >
> > > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a
> translator
> > > > into a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key
to
have
> > > > > involvement
> > > > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the
efforts.
Of
> > the
> > > > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to
be
> > > > > involved /
> > > > > > > have translations from TWB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad
<
> > > jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > >
wrote:
>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for
translations
> > from
> > > > > small
> > > > > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that
is a lot
> more
> > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > than strictly translating from the larger
language
projects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe
Béland <
> > > > > > > > jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca
> > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should
come from
the
> > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > > language projects, same for the list of
articles. If not,
> in
> > my
> > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling
Blad <
> > > > jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining
points are
somewhat
> > less
> > > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of
articles is a bad
> > idea,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for
themselves.
> > Articles
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical
or medical, ie
> > > vertical
> > > > > > > > articles,
> > > > > > > > > > as the number of editors that can
handle those will be
> > pretty
> > > > > > small.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can
turn a teanslator
> > into
> > > a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > editor!
> > > > > > > > > > You can although turn an existing
editor into a
> translator.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John
Erling Blad <
> > > > > > jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high
quality content and thus
> all
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before
being proposed for
> > > translation.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on
"quality" can easily
kill
> the
> > > > > > project.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation"
tool developed by the
WMF
made
> > > > efforts
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word
documents. Would
love
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it
support specific
> lists
> > of
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by
certain groups.
> Would
> > > also
> > > > > > love
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for
these types of
> projects.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation,
but it should be
> pretty
> > > > > obvious.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly
associated
with
our
> > > > partner
> > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue
we found was
that
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such
as French,
Spanish,
and
> > > Italian
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many
of the
topics
in
> > > > > question.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an
expert
> > Wikipedia.
> > > > And
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content
there are
often
> > few
> > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an
example, as
the
> > chance
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per
word" the problem is
this
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make
sure people
are
> > taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google
translate for
the
> 70
> > > or
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We
often had
translations
> > > undergo
> > > > a
> > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB
have to pass
certain
> > tests
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote
"verified good
> translators".
> > It
> > > > is
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor
contributed other articles
at
> > the
> > > > > > > project?"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM,
James Heilman <
> > > > > jmh649(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during
the medical
translation
> >
project
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality
content and thus
all
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being
proposed for
> > translation.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want
"less" content than is
> present
> > on
> > > > EN
> > > > > > WP.
> > > > > > > > Thus
> > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and
suggesting for
translation
> the
> > > > leads
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content
Translation" tool developed by the
WMF
>
made
> > > > > efforts
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word
documents. Would
love
to
> > see
> > > > that
> > > > > > > tool
> > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support
specific
lists
of
> > > > > articles
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain
groups.
Would
> also
> > > > love
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types
of
projects.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly
associated
with
> our
> > > > > partner
> > > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue
we found was
that
> > > > > languages
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such
as French,
Spanish,
and
> > > Italian
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many
of the
topics
in
> > > > > question.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an
expert
> > Wikipedia.
> > > > And
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content
there are
often
> > few
> > > > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per
word" the problem is
this
> > would
> > > > > > require
> > > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make
sure people
are
> > taking
> > > > the
> > > > > > > work
> > > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google
translate for
the
> 70
> > > or
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > > languages
> > > > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We
often had
translations
> > > undergo
> > > > a
> > > > > > > second
> > > > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB
have to pass
certain
> > tests
> > > to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the
translation project
> for a
> > > > > couple
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want
to become
> Wikipedians
> > or
> > > > > learn
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator
created account
like
> > TransSW001
> > > > > (one
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to
be
translated
> > > into
> > > > > > > Content
> > > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the
volunteer translator
the
>
user
> > > name
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently
just over
1,000
> > > leads
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are
ready for
> > > translation.
> > > > > This
> > > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications
that are on
the
> > WHO
> > > > > > > Essential
> > > > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some
100 languages.
The
> > > efforts
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works
translated and
integrated
> > into
> > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has
unfortunately moved
on
> to
> > > his
> > > > > real
> > > > > > > job
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a
slower pace than
> before.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon
Subas Chandra Rout
has
> > > > basically
> > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all
1,000 leads into
Odia a
> > > > language
> > > > > > > spoken
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India.
The amazing
thing
is
>
that
> > > for
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only
information
online
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in
this
language.
> Our
> > > > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai
continue to
> translate
> > > > into
> > > > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than
their
translations
are
> > > > > reviewed
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They
translate in
groups
> > > using
> > > > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate
the project
:-)
> > > > > > > > >>
James
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John
Erling Blad <
> > > > > jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun!
=D
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy
Wikipedia-projects has
more
> > > than
> > > > > 65k
> > > > > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or
so are pretty small.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles
were opened for
paid
> >
> > translators?
> > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We
have both the
> thousand
> > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every
Wikipedia should have"[1]
and
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > ten
> > > > > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded
list[2].
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good
translators was paid about
> $0.01
> > > per
> > > > > word
> > > > > > > > > (about
> > > > > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for
translating one of those
> articles
> > > into
> > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a
higher pay for
contributors
> in
> > > > > > high-cost
> > > > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also
have to be higher
for
> >
> languages
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an
_enabling_ activity for
the
> > > > > > > communities,
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles
it won't be
possible
to
> >
build a
> > > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and
only
translating
> > > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the
communities
could
be
> > > > > avoided.
> > > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source
articles, that
would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above
some minimum
size,
> > but
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations
of the source
article.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing
lists of good
articles
> > > other
> > > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased
towards Western
World,
> > so
> > > > they
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a
project would
identify
> > our
> > > > > > inherit
> > > > > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > > > > >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > > > > >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > > > > >> >
Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > > > > >> >
_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list,
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> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
> > > >
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> > > > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > > > > >>
_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list,
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> > > > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > > > > --
> > > > > > James Heilman
> > > > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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