Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation

25 Feb 2018

      Any "global" list reflects (and I fear it will always reflect) the
Weltanschauung of those cultures which are stronger on the web.
I'm deeply concerned about cultures being eaten up by globalization but
attempts to preserve them should take into account the risk of ending up
preserving just "our" view of these cultures.
I also agree with WereSpielChequers' comments about mixing paid and unpaid
editing. What I think it can be done is a system of prizes/contests (maybe
evaluated by paid experts) focused on attracting people on Wikisource and
Wiktionaries, Wikipedia can follow if a critical mass is eventually reached.
Vito
2018-02-25 15:16 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com:
...
Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they are
from a big western language or a minority language.
The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles about
the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
...
Cultural appropriation is something different, by "forcing" the contents
in
...
a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form
of
...
"cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation.
NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian" sense: I
mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
flourishing Wikipedia communities.
Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion,
but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being
as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already
wrote,
...
wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki
scope:
...
Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with
different
...
languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence
in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.
Vito
2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com:
...
Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation.
Not
...
...
sure if it is possible to agree on this.
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
...
I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed
in a
...
...
better way by others:
*a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality
verification
...
...
...
requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
themselves;
...
...
*articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
identity
...
of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them
to a
...
...
...
different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
focuses
...
...
about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
*articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the
cultural
...
...
...
identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
*finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
Wikipedians.
IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
texts
...
of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their
vocabularies
...
...
...
(wiktionary).
Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers
should
...
be
...
...
dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any
of
...
...
its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books
about
...
...
him
...
in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake
"literary"
...
language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic
painting"
...
...
in
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Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
knowledge.
Vito
2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com:
...
My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
merely a
...
...
...
statement about my present experience about translators in general.
The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
specialized
...
...
area is that there is a small community, and within this community
some
...
...
...
kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
remaining
...
group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
there
...
...
will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game
of
...
...
...
...
probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public
health
...
...
...
services will probably work even for a pretty small language group,
but
...
...
...
specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you
find
...
...
...
a retired
orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com
wrote:
...
...
...
I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
into a
...
...
new
...
editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
involvement
...
of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of
the
...
...
...
...
languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
involved /
...
...
have translations from TWB.
James
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
jeblad@gmail.com>
...
...
...
...
wrote:
> You can turn it around; give added credits for translations
from
...
...
...
small
...
...
> language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
interesting
> than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> jpbeland@wikimedia.ca
> > wrote:
>
> > I think the request for such projects should come from the
concerned
...
...
> > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in
my
...
...
...
...
simple
...
> > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> >
> > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
jeblad@gmail.com
...
...
...
> wrote:
> >
> > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat
less
...
...
...
...
...
> interesting
> > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
idea,
...
...
the
...
...
...
> > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
Articles
...
...
...
should
...
...
> also
> > be
> > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
vertical
...
...
...
...
> articles,
> > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
pretty
...
...
...
...
small.
...
> > >
> > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
into
...
a
...
...
new
...
...
> > editor!
> > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
jeblad@gmail.com>
...
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
articles
...
...
are
> > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
translation.
...
...
...
...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill
the
...
...
...
...
...
project.
> > > >
> > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
made
...
...
...
...
efforts
...
> > more
> > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
to
...
...
see
...
...
that
> > > tool
> > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
lists
...
of
...
...
...
...
> articles
> > > that
> > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
Would
...
...
also
...
...
...
love
> > the
> > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
projects.
...
...
...
...
...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be
pretty
...
...
...
...
obvious.
...
> > > >
> > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
our
...
...
...
...
partner
...
> > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
languages
...
> in
> > > >> which
> > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
and
...
...
...
...
Italian
...
> > there
> > > >> is
> > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
topics
...
in
...
...
...
...
> question.
> > > The
> > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
Wikipedia.
...
...
And
> > for
> > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
often
...
...
few
...
...
...
> > avaliable
> > > >> volunteers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
chance
...
...
of
...
> > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > >
> > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
would
...
...
...
> require
> > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
taking
...
...
the
...
> > work
> > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
70
...
...
or
...
so
...
...
> > > languages
> > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
undergo
...
a
...
...
> second
> > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
tests
...
to
...
...
be
...
> > > >> accepted.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
translators".
...
It
...
...
is
...
as
...
> > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at
the
...
...
...
...
...
project?"
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
jmh649@gmail.com
...
...
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
project
...
...
...
which
> > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
articles
...
> are
> > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
translation.
...
...
...
...
> > > >>
> > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is
present
...
on
...
...
EN
...
...
WP.
> > Thus
> > > >> we
> > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation
the
...
...
...
leads
...
...
of
> > the
> > > >> English articles.
> > > >>
> > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF
made
...
...
...
...
efforts
> > more
> > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love
to
...
...
see
...
...
that
> > > tool
> > > >> improved further such as having it support specific
lists
...
of
...
...
...
...
> articles
> > > that
> > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
Would
...
...
also
...
...
...
love
> > the
> > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
projects.
...
...
...
...
...
> > > >>
> > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with
our
...
...
...
...
partner
> > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
languages
...
> in
> > > >> which
> > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish,
and
...
...
...
...
Italian
...
> > there
> > > >> is
> > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
topics
...
in
...
...
...
...
> question.
> > > The
> > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
Wikipedia.
...
...
And
> > for
> > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
often
...
...
few
...
...
...
> > avaliable
> > > >> volunteers.
> > > >>
> > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this
would
...
...
...
> require
> > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
taking
...
...
the
...
> > work
> > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
70
...
...
or
...
so
...
...
> > > languages
> > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
undergo
...
a
...
...
> second
> > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain
tests
...
to
...
...
be
...
> > > >> accepted.
> > > >>
> > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project
for a
...
...
...
...
couple
...
of
> > > >> years.
> > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
Wikipedians
...
or
...
...
...
learn
...
> how
> > > to
> > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
TransSW001
...
...
> (one
> > > for
> > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be
translated
...
...
...
into
...
...
> > Content
> > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
user
...
...
name
...
> and
> > > >> password to the account.
> > > >>
> > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over
1,000
...
...
...
leads
...
...
of
> > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
translation.
...
...
This
> > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the
WHO
...
...
...
...
> Essential
> > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
efforts
...
...
have
...
> > > >> resulted
> > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated
into
...
...
...
...
> different
> > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on
to
...
...
his
...
...
real
...
> job
> > > of
> > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > >>
> > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
before.
...
...
The
...
...
...
> > > Wikipedian
> > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
basically
...
...
> single
> > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
language
...
...
> spoken
> > > by
> > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is
that
...
...
for
...
> many
> > > of
> > > >> these topics this is the first and only information
online
...
...
...
about
...
...
it.
> > > >> Google
> > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language.
Our
...
...
...
...
> > partnerships
> > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
translate
...
...
...
into
...
> > > Chinese.
> > > >> There the students translate and than their translations
are
...
...
...
...
> reviewed
> > by
> > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in
groups
...
...
...
using
...
...
> > hackpad
> > > to
> > > >> make it more social.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > >> James
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
jeblad@gmail.com
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more
than
...
...
65k
...
> > > >> articles,
> > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
translators?
...
> > There
> > > >> are
> > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the
thousand
...
...
...
...
> articles
> > > from
> > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and
and
...
...
the
...
...
ten
> > > >> thousand
> > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
$0.01
...
...
per
...
...
word
...
> > > (about
> > > >> $1
> > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
articles
...
...
into
...
...
...
> another
> > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors
in
...
...
...
...
...
high-cost
> > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
languages
...
...
that
> > > lacks
> > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> communities,
> > as
> > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
build a
...
...
> > > >> community at
> > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
translating
...
...
...
...
> > > >> well-referenced
> > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities
could
...
be
...
...
...
...
> avoided.
> > > >> Perhaps
> > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
would
...
...
be
...
a
...
...
> help.
> > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size,
but
...
...
...
they
...
> does
> > > not
> > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good
articles
...
...
...
other
...
> > > >> projects
> > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
World,
...
...
so
...
...
they
...
> > need
> > > a
> > > >> lot
> > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify
our
...
...
...
...
inherit
> > > bias?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > [1]
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/List_of_articles_every_
...
...
...
...
...
> > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > >> > [2]
> > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/List_of_articles_every_
...
...
...
...
...
> > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> James Heilman
> > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation