Sorry, but this does not make sense. The core articles apply globally.
There will although be articles in additions to a list of core articles,
but I don't try to advocate any of those lists as the one and only list.
Actually I have toyed with an idea of automatically create a list of core
articles, and that would identify important articles no matter if they are
from a big western language or a minority language.
The main problem is NOT that minority languages should have articles about
the major cities and important philosophers, *the main problem is that
minor languages can't get started because they lack content*!
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:41 AM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Cultural appropriation is something different, by
"forcing" the contents in
a minority language we would actually be at risk of implementing a form of
"cultural colonialism" which is the opposite of a cultural appropriation.
NOTE: I refer to "the Western" in both cultural and "Wikipedian"
sense: I
mean cultures with a strong presence on the web plus developed and
flourishing Wikipedia communities.
Helping minority languages with funds/workforce is not bad in my opinion,
but I think a bottom-up process must be followed, with the "bottom" being
as closer as possible to relevant linguistic/cultural communities. A
Wikipedia full of "what the Westerns think is important" in a minority
non-Western language would definitely fail project scopes.
This kind of problem almost does not arise with minority language
associated to Western cultures since they share the same cultural
backgrounds: back to my previous example the cultural background of
Sicilian is substantially equal to Italian one. Still, as I already wrote,
wikis in minority languages should focus on a certain aspect of wiki scope:
Wiki has roughly two main scopes: 1) sharing knowledge in a certain
language 2) also preserving the cultural heritage associated with different
languages. For languages mainly spoken as first language the "sharing
knowledge" aspect is predominant, while the second should take precedence
in languages whose speakers are native speakers of a "bigger" language.
Vito
2018-02-24 22:58 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
Seems like this is mostly about cultural
ownership and appropriation. Not
sure if it is possible to agree on this.
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
>
> I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed
in
a
> better way by others:
> *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations
themselves;
*articles
are the result of a long process which reflects cultural
identity
> of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only
focuses
about the
strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
*articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
*finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
Wikipedians.
IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise
texts
> of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> (wiktionary).
>
> Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should
be
> dealt with in a different fashion. I, for
one, am a native speaker of
> specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any
of
its
speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about
him
in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation
creates a fake
"literary"
language totally detached from reality:
there's no "encaustic painting"
in
> Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
>
> As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> knowledge.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>om>:
>
> > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was
merely a
>
statement about my present experience about translators in general.
>
> The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a
specialized
> > area is that there is a small community, and within this community
some
kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is
repeated the
remaining
> group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and
there
> > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public
health
> > services will probably work even for a
pretty small language group,
but
> > specialized medical articles might
create a problem. But then you
find
> a
retired
> orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator
into a
> > new
> > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > involvement
> > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of
the
> > > languages we worked in only one
explicitly requested not to be
> involved /
> > > have translations from TWB.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <
jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
small
> > language projects and into the larger
ones, that is a lot more
> interesting
> > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
concerned
> > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> simple
> > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > >
> > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <
jeblad(a)gmail.com
>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > interesting
> > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea,
the
> > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves.
Articles
> should
> > > > also
> > > > > be
> > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
vertical
> > > > articles,
> > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be
pretty
> > small.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator
into
a
> new
> > > > > editor!
> > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a
translator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus
all
> articles
> > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
translation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can
easily kill the
> > > project.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed
by the WMF made
> > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents.
Would love
to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support
specific lists
of
> >
> articles
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
Would
also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should
be pretty
> > obvious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
with our
> > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found
was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French,
Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
topics
in
> > question.
> > > > The
> > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
Wikipedia.
> > And
> > > > for
> > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
often
few
> > > > avaliable
> > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the
chance
> of
> > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem
is this
would
> > > require
> > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
taking
> the
> > > > work
> > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
70
or
so
> > > > > languages
> > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass
certain
tests
to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good
translators".
It
is
as
> > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at
the
> project?"
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
jmh649(a)gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation
project
> > > which
> > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and
thus all
> > articles
> > > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for
translation.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less"
content than is present
on
> EN
> > > WP.
> > > > > Thus
> > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for
translation the
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool
developed by the WMF
made
> > > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents.
Would love
to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support
specific lists
of
> >
> articles
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups.
Would
also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of
projects.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated
with
our
> > > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found
was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French,
Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the
topics
in
> > question.
> > > > The
> > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
Wikipedia.
> > And
> > > > for
> > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are
often
few
> > > > avaliable
> > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the
problem is this
would
> > > require
> > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are
taking
> the
> > > > work
> > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the
70
or
so
> > > > > languages
> > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations
undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass
certain
tests
to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation
project for a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become
Wikipedians
or
learn
> > how
> > > > to
> > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
TransSW001
> > (one
> > > > for
> > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
into
> > > > Content
> > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator
the
user
> > name
> > > > and
> > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just
over 1,000
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready
for
> translation.
> > > This
> > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are
on the
WHO
> >
> Essential
> > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
efforts
> > have
> > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and
integrated
into
> >
> different
> > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on
to
his
> real
> > > job
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than
before.
The
> >
> > Wikipedian
> > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
basically
> > single
> > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
language
> > > spoken
> > > > > by
> > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing
is
that
> > for
> > > > many
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only
information online
> about
> > > it.
> > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this
language.
Our
> > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
translate
> > into
> > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their
translations
are
> > reviewed
> > > by
> > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
using
> > > > hackpad
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project
:-)
> > > > > >> James
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has
more
than
> > 65k
> > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty
small.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened
for paid
> > translators?
> > > > > There
> > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both
the
thousand
> > > > articles
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should
have"[1] and
and
the
> > ten
> > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about
$0.01
per
> word
> > > > > (about
> > > > > >> $1
> > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those
articles
into
> > > > another
> > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for
contributors in
> > > high-cost
> > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be
higher for
> languages
> > > that
> > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_
activity for the
> > > > communities,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't
be possible to
> build a
> > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only
translating
> > > > > > >>
well-referenced
> > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the
communities could
be
> >
> avoided.
> > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that
would
be
> a
> > > > help.
> > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some
minimum size,
but
> > they
> > > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source
article.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of
good
articles
>
other
> > > > > >> projects
> > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western
World,
so
> > they
> > > > > need
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would
identify
our
> > > inherit
> > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > >> >
_______________________________________________
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> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
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