I actually agree with Todd, and I though this is actually a reason why WMF
staff may not edit articles (at least not from WMF accounts). I am afraid
disadvantages due to the broken symmetry will be bigger than advantages due
to actual content translated.
Cheers
Yaroslav
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, and then there's always the question. If
he's getting paid, why aren't
I? Why is he getting paid per word of article translated? Why am I not
getting paid per spamvertisement deleted or vandal blocked? Why am I not
getting paid for closing discussions that it takes hours of reading input
and considering all sides and getting rocks thrown at me no matter what I
do? Is that not valuable to the project as well?
If you want to pay anyone, you better start paying me. I'm okay with the
idea of being a volunteer as long as everyone is a volunteer. But if you
start paying some people and not me, we're going to have a problem.
Todd
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood(a)telkomsa.net> wrote:
Those who pay get to select what is translated.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: 24 February 2018 16:55
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
I think the request for such projects should come from the concerned
language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my simple
opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
Jean-Philippe Béland
Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Should have added that the remaining points are
somewhat less
interesting in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad
idea, the translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
should also be pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie
vertical articles, as the number of editors that can handle those will
be pretty
small.
In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a new
editor!
You can although turn an existing editor into a
translator.
On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
1) You must start with high quality content and
thus all articles
are
> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the project.
3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made efforts
more
> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to see
> that
tool
> improved further such as having it support
specific lists of
> articles
that
> are deemed ready for translation by certain
groups. Would also love
> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty obvious.
4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> topics in question.
The
> issue than becomes integration which needs an
expert Wikipedia. And
> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> avaliable volunteers.
I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance of
competing articles are pretty low.
5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
require
> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking the
> work seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
languages
>> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
>> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
>> to be accepted.
>
>
> I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It is as
> simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the project?"
>
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> >> which started back in 2011:
> >>
> >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all articles
> >> are extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> >>
> >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on EN
WP.
> >> Thus we moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> >> leads of the English articles.
> >>
> >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
efforts
> >> more efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> >> see that
> tool
> >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> >> articles
> that
> >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also love
> >> the tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> >>
> >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our partner
> >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that languages
> >> in which their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> >> Italian there is often already at least some content on many of the
> >> topics in question.
> The
> >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert Wikipedia. And
> >> for languages in which we have little content there are often few
> >> avaliable volunteers.
> >>
> >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> >> require significant checks and balances to make sure people are
> >> taking the work seriously and not simple using Google translate for
> >> the 70 or so
> languages
> >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo a
> >> second review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests
> >> to be accepted.
> >>
> >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a couple
> >> of years.
> >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or learn
> >> how
> to
> >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like TransSW001
> >> (one
> for
> >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated into
> >> Content Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the
> >> user name and password to the account.
> >>
> >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 leads of
> >> articles that have been improved and are ready for translation.
> >> This includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> >> Essential List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The
> >> efforts have resulted in more than 5 million works translated and
> >> integrated into different Wikipedias. The coordinator has
> >> unfortunately moved on to his real job
> of
> >> teaching high school students.
> >>
> >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> Wikipedian
> >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has basically
> >> single handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> >> language spoken
> by
> >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that for
> >> many
> of
> >> these topics this is the first and only information online about it.
> >> Google
> >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> >> partnerships with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to
> >> translate into
> Chinese.
> >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> >> reviewed by their profs before being posted. They translate in
> >> groups using hackpad
> to
> >> make it more social.
> >>
> >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) James
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad
> >> <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> >> >
> >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than 65k
> >> articles,
> >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> >> >
> >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid translators?
> >> > There
> >> are
> >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> >> > articles
> from
> >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
the ten
> >> thousand
> >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> >> >
> >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per word
> (about
> >> $1
> >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> >> > another language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> >> > high-cost countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> >> > languages that
> lacks
> >> > good translation tools.
> >> >
> >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> >> > communities, as without a base set of articles it won't be
> >> > possible to build a
> >> community at
> >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> >> well-referenced
> >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
avoided.
> >> Perhaps
> >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be a
help.
> > Translated articles should be above some
minimum size, but they
> > does
not
> > have to be full translations of the
source article.
> >
> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles other
> projects
> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so they
> > need
a
> lot
> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our inherit
bias?
> >
> > [1]
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > [2]
> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> _______________________________________________
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