I've just crossed https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Paulinapaulina3030 but I must confess I won't do anything out of the wiki (it.wiki) where I am a local sysop. Catching crosswiki paid editing is the most frustrating activity ever, a couple of years ago I wasted two months in defending myself against the trolling I drew for deleting userpages of someone massively creating them to promote a "customer".
Vito
2017-01-06 6:17 GMT+01:00 Jytdog at Wikipedia jytdogtemp1@gmail.com:
Sending a cease and desist letter costs little. WMF will find many volunteers happy to provide what evidence they possess linking various companies to various articles.
Yes, attempting to enforce a cease and desist letter would entail court costs, and that should be considered. One thing that drives court costs is the resources of the other side in litigation and my sense is many of these individuals and their companies do not have deep pockets; I am not sure how the real is the risk of litigation draining the WMF budget.
On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
It's a difficult challenge. I agree with David; on English Wikipedia, we have masses and masses of articles of borderline notability that are so obviously blatant spam....and they have a terrible tendency to be kept at Articles for Deletion. It's a reflection of our still-optimistic outlook that there are still people who believe that someone will come along and magically turn the spam into something encyclopedic; the reality is that those articles tend to stay pretty much as they are unless someone who
has
dug up the sources that supposedly make a subject notable actually edit
the
article to transform it from advertorial to encyclopedic.
I do not know enough about how other Wikipedias handle such spam,
although
I have heard from some people editing on some projects that similar articles there would be speedy-deleted without a second thought. I do not think that it is likely that English Wikipedia will get to that point unless more people who feel strongly about spam actively participate at AfD.
As to the WMF investing in trying to track down and take down "paid
editing
companies", there are a few things to keep in mind. First, it's very expensive to develop the evidence that makes the direct link from the
spam
article to the real identity of the writer of the article. Many of those "companies" are individual people, and there are also plenty of people
who
call themselves "advisors" who may not edit directly but facilitate companies getting their spam on Wikipedia. And just finding those people/organizations isn't enough - then the course of action usually involves the courts (of varying jurisdictions) which means more lawyers
and
more external legal fees. We're talking a lot of money here, and that's
the
area where I have significant concern - a concerted effort covering the
10
largest projects could easily cost as much as the WMF's annual budget.
One
more thing to keep in mind: many courts would expect some evidence that the problematic organization is causing harm to the brand and financial position of Wikipedia. That part is tough - it's almost impossible to demonstrate a financial cost to Wikipedia for having a spammy article, especially as such a large percentage of the articles on many projectst
are
barely of "start" quality. The fact that there is a conscious decision
not
to take advantage of mitigating remedies that are already available to us (such as confirmed identity or not permitting article creation until
after
a certain number of edits) would also be a potential barrier to legal remedies against paid editing. (I'm not advocating those changes at all, just looking at it from an external perspective.)
Is undisclosed paid editing a violation of the terms of use? Of course
it
is. But outside of security and safety issues, the WMF has historically left it to the volunteers to interpret the TOU and apply it on individual projects. Frankly, it's how the WMF manages with only a $75 million budget, which is less than many similarly large and popular sites spend
on
client services, let alone legal fees. Given the longterm frustration of many community members about fundraising, it may be a very tough sell within our own broad community to have to raise more money for the
purpose
of hiring the staff and paying the bills to address undisclosed paid editing to the point that there is a genuine effect.
Risker/Anne
On 5 January 2017 at 13:53, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
I should add: I spent a few months following the various AFD queues on WP lately, and MY GOODNESS THERE ARE SO MANY BLATANT SPAMMERS. What Jytdog raises is an actual problem. The short reason for a lot of the Problems with Wikipedia is actually "spammers mean we can't have nice things".
- d.
On 2 January 2017 at 22:08, Jytdog jytdogtemp1@gmail.com wrote:
Christophe
Thanks for replying!
This is something the board should be paying attention to, as
undisclosed
paid editing that causes scandal that reaches mainstream media on a
regular
basis, damages the reputation of Wikipedia, and is something that
both
Jimmy
Wales and Sue Gardner (when she was ED) made strong public statements
about.
See:
foundation-employee-ousted-over-paid-editing/
2012-10-01/Paid_editing
scandal-uk-head-was-paid-to-promote-topics.html
And there are many more references to this issue in mainstream media.
Doing nothing, especially when WMF representatives make strong
statements
and there are legal remedies available (WMF legal sent a
cease-and-desist
order to Wiki-PR with regard to use of the Wikipedia name even before
the
ToU were strengthened) opens the WMF to criticism and makes those
strong
statements appear to be just empty rhetoric. Action is possible.
Where
is
it?
------ Original Message ------ From: "Christophe Henner" chenner@wikimedia.org To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: 1/2/2017 3:51:49 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies that
offer
paid editing services
Heu
To be fair it's a topic that isn't currently in our plate.
So to be honest, from a board level, I can't really give you an
answer
right now. As said before, there might be legal constraints we can't foresee.
I made a not to work on that topic, but it might take some time as
the
current focus is on the strategy process.
Have a very good day,
Le 2 janv. 2017 9:46 AM, "Gnangarra" gnangarra@gmail.com a écrit
:
Like most in western countries you'll find most of the WMF staff are currently out of office so I wouldnt expect much back especially not officially from them until after the 9th January.
On 2 January 2017 at 16:42, Jytdog at Wikipedia <
jytdogtemp1@gmail.com>
wrote:
This is something that people can natter over endlessly.
The question is to the WMF board and management. These are the
people
who can authorize action or not. Anything else is just talk.
Again - what discussions has the WMF had, at the corporate decision-making level, about taking legal action against companies that advertise
WP
editing services and that have no evidence of disclosure as
required
under the ToU?
Thanks.
On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
> Good points, Gnangarra. I started to write out a reply before realizing > that maybe I would give ideas to our adversaries, so I'll wait
here
for > Legal to talk. Perhaps some of us can continue this conversation behind > closed doors. > > Pine > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > I think it would be nice for a more direct input from the WMF
over
those > > not following the Terms of use. > > > > I see some potential pitfalls, even in chasing companies that
charge
for > > content; > > > > - would this draw WMF into a legal editorial position > > - would it drive them to further hide their activities > > - what would damage would be done if a court says its ok
for
a
> > company/individual to control its image even on Wikipedia.
we
already > > deal > > with the EUs right to vanish > > > > sometimes its better to not open the can. I think a lot more discussion > > over the implications and impact is needed unfortunately some
of
that can > > only be behind closed doors it going to need community trust(something I > > think isnt all there at the moment), before asking the WMF
legal
to
> pick a > > fight with anyone. > > > > On 2 January 2017 at 08:52, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > > (: I think that Legal could at least describe in general
terms
what > they > > > are currently doing and have plans to do in the near future. > > > > > > If it turns out that the answers are "we aren't doing much
and
we
> aren't > > > planning to do more", then yes, asking the higher-ups to do
something
> > about > > > this sounds like a good idea. By the way, I think the timing
for
this
> > > discussion is good, because WMF should be in the early
stages
of
> > > formulating the 2017-2018 annual plan. > > > > > > Happy new year! > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Jytdog at Wikipedia < > > jytdogtemp1@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Pine, thanks for your reply, but Legal will not do
anything
like
this > > > > unless they are instructed by management. That is why I directed my > > > > question to the board and management. > > > > > > > > I've asked at Jimbo's talk page (bad timing, archived over
the
> > holidays, > > > > will repost) and at Katherine's WP talk page. > > > > > > > > Am very interested to hear from the board and/or WMF
management
on > > this. > > > > > > > > Jytdog > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:50:07 -0800 > > > > > From: Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.
org
,
> > > > > Wikimedia Legal legal@wikimedia.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies > that > > > > > offer paid editing services > > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > <CAF=dyJhC8UqxkOY9FG9diGyobdgbbQaK_ > > > +M=m9E5Bo3aysPAOw@mail.gmail. > > > > > com> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > > > > > > > Forwarding to Legal. I'm aware of the general problem of > undisclosed > > > COI > > > > > editing, and agree that there should be some enforcement
of
this,
> > > > > particularly given that WMF wants to use Wikipedia's
NPOV
and
RS > > > policies > > > > > as part of WMF's marketing. I also wonder if WMF might
be
able
to
> > > recover > > > > > the costs of enforcement expenses somehow, perhaps by including
a
> > > > statement > > > > > in the TOS that says that people and their employers who engage in > > > > certain > > > > > types of undisclosed COI editing must (1) reimburse WMF
for
> attorney > > > > fees, > > > > > court fees, and other related costs of investigations
and
> > enforcement, > > > > and > > > > > (2) forfeit all revenue from their related activities to
WMF.
My > > guess > > > is > > > > > that significant financial penalties would be a bigger deterrent > than > > > > > name-and-shame and cease-and-desist letters. > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 03:50:03 -0500 > > > > > From: Jytdog at Wikipedia jytdogtemp1@gmail.com > > > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing
companies
that > > offer > > > > > paid editing services > > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > <CAAOzcj3cLaJOhvV6LvtqPTtULdj+ 9Ccanmht7EJQVLv+Lqa=Ww@mail. > > > > > gmail.com> > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > > > > > > > I am interested to learn if WMF management or the board
has
> discussed > > > > > taking legal action against companies that offer
services
to
edit
> > > > Wikipedia > > > > > and that have no on-Wiki presence disclosing their edits
(in
en-WP > at > > > > > least) per the Terms of Use. We all know the companies
and
their
> > > > websites, > > > > > where they use the Wikipedia name, etc. I have looked
and
never > > found > > > > > disclosure by any of those companies in en-WP. I have
looked
and
> > found > > > > no > > > > > public evidence of WMF legal engaging with these
companies,
other
> > than > > > > > Wiki-PR. > > > > > > > > > > Some en-Wiki editors recently identified a long-term
paid
editor > and > > > > > brought the matter to ANI: thread is here > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia: > > > > > Administrators%27_noticeboard/
Incidents&oldid=757170150#
> > > > > Earflaps_-_accusations_of_being_an_undisclosed_paid_ > > > > > editor_and_a_sock_puppet>. > > > > > This brought this whole thing to mind, and is something
I
have
been > > > > wanting > > > > > to ask about. > > > > > > > > > > Three questions: > > > > > > > > > > Has this been discussed, and if so, what has/have the
outcomes
> been? > > > > > > > > > > Also, is there budget for WMF legal to take action
against
such > > > > companies? > > > > > > > > > > If not, would you all please consider that? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
unsubscribe>
> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > President Wikimedia Australia > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
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