On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:18 PM Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
Ah. You mean you're counting all footnote markers (including those at the end of paragraphs). You're not just counting the number of references at the bottom of the page. Yes I saw that. But you are missing my point. Many editors use one footnote marker to support all the sentences in a paragraph. Many use one footnote marker to support all sentences after the last footnote marker.
There are many multi-sentence paragraphs in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_pain with just one footnote marker supporting all the sentences. Using your metric, the sentences at the beginning and middle of those paragraphs would be counted as unsourced statements.
Yes. Unless I missed it, there is no good way to automatically discern what a <ref> refers to - a word, a sentence, a paragraph. As described, my "one sentence, one statement" metric is a lower bound of statement numbers. So is my <ref> count, then. I am certain you can find an article where my statement-to-reference ratio is off against WIkipedia; but I believe I could find more instances where it is in favour of Wikipedia.
But, really, who cares? The whole thing is a non-argument. It just doesn't matter which project is more poorly referenced.
Well, considering the amount you write about it, apparently you care :-)
My argument, and I believe I made this reasonably solid, is that one can't "sit on Wikipedia", pointing finders at Wikidata for poor referencing. Which is what Andreas Kolbe implicitly did (amongst other things). That is all.
Cheers, Magnus
Anthony Cole
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
Magnus, I've just re-scanned your essay and don't see mention of you only counting footnote markers within the paragraphs and not at the end of paragraphs.
And why wouldn't you count a footnote marker at the end of a paragraph
if,
as I've just explained, the sole citation at the end of a paragraph often supports all statements in the paragraph?
Why would you assume one sentence only contains one fact?
Choosing a lead sentence as your example - Denny did the same in his response to Andreas's critique - is potentially misleading because, provided statements are repeated and supported by a reliable source in
the
body of an article, citations are not expected or required in
en.Wikipedia
article leads.
Your methodology is flawed; fatally biased toward exaggerating
Wikipedia's
lack of references. But. I really don't care because I think the reliability of Wikipedia and level of referencing in Wikipedia is appalling.
Forgive me for mischaracterising your argument as, ""Wikipedia is worse". You appear to be saying, "Well, Wikipedia is bad, too." That's true but still an invalid argument.
It was someone else who put the "It's a wiki" argument.
Several of your colleagues above have complained that adding references
is
difficult in Wikidata. And your response is what? "Actually, it is easy to add references to Wikidata, certainly not more difficult than adding them to Wikipedia." Please listen to people, will you?
You still seem to think the problem with the roll-out of the media viewer and visual editor was the stoopid power users.
Anthony Cole
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 10:11 PM, Magnus Manske < magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:27 PM Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Magnus.
I'm re-reading this thread and just noticed you linked me to an essay
[1]
earlier. I'm sorry, I didn't realise at the time that you were
addressing
me.
Comments have closed there, so I'll post my thoughts here. You
describe
a
formula for measuring how well Wikipedia is supported by reliable
sources.
Basically, correct me if this is wrong, you presume that each sentence contains one statement of fact and compare the number of sentences
with
the
number of footnote markers. That ratio is what you call the references
per
statement (RPS) ratio. You have another formula for arriving at the
RPS
ratio for Wikidata statements. You then compare the RPS ratios of en.Wikipedia featured articles with the RPS ratios of their associated Wikidata items. And drew conclusions from that latter comparison.
Correct.
Many of the Wikipedia articles I write have a low RPS ratio because
whole
paragraphs are supported by one reference, whose footnote marker
appears
only once at the end of the paragraph.
Which is why I am counting reference markers within the paragraphs, not references at the end. Every <ref> is sacred ;-)
Actually, I think my statement count for entire Wikipedia articles is
low
(and thus, favourable to Wikipedia). Take jsut the first sentence at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams This sentence alone contains nine statements (first names, last name, birth date, death date, nationality, the fact he's human, and three occupations). But I would only count that as one statement, as it is one sentence.
This
reduces the number of statements I count in the article, but the number
of
references (btw, only one in the entire lead section) remains constant, thus pushing the RPS ratio in favour of Wikipedia.
But, really, it doesn't matter. The arguments that "it's a wiki it
should
be unreliable", or "Wikipedia is worse" are not really very valid arguments.
I agree. Which is why I never made such arguments. Please don't put them in my mouth; I don't know you well enough for that.
The sound argument coming from above is the cry from Gerrard and
others
that it is hideously difficult to add citations to Wikidata sources.
If
that is so, you should fix that.
Actually, it is easy to add references to Wikidata, certainly not more difficult than adding them to Wikipedia. I have written bots and drag'n'drop scripts to make it even easier. It is a little fiiddly to
add
book references, but still reasoably possible. What /is/ difficult is to do this automatically, by bot. But pick a
random
Wikidata entry, and with a little googling, many statements can be referenced to URLs. But this takes time. Which brings me back to my blog post: Even after ~3 years, Wikidata is referenced not too badly, compared to Wikipedia. And if we have learned one thing from Wikipedia, it is that the state in general, and references in particular, will improve over time. So to everyone who disses Wikidata because of "missing references", I
say:
- You're wrong (it's already OK)
- Patience (it will get even better)
Cheers, Magnus
Anthony Cole
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com wrote:
The issue is that you are framing all objections to be of the "it's new, so it's bad" crowd. I'm not even convinced that such a crowd exists, let alone that it is the mainstream of community is behind
it,
as you seem to imply. To be honest, as a member of the community who had a negative opinion about the first released version of visual editor, I feel personally insulted by your statements. Which I had
to
be, because I know you have done many good things.
And how would you want to "come together and fix it"? Your average Wikipedia/other project editor does not have the software
engineering
skills to just go and repair the Mediawiki code, and even if they
did,
they would not have the power to make their repairs go life in short term (and before I'm misunderstood, I am not complaining about that, it is entirely logical and doing it differently would probably cause disasters). They can of course complain, and file bug reports etcetera, but they have no idea what will happen with them.
I think a big part of the blame lies with Wikimedia's way of working in this, at least that's what I see in the Imageviewer case. People see issues, and want them resolved. But some of those issues are so large that they do not want the product at all *until they are resolved*. By not only using the user as a beta tester, but also forcing the product on them in the period between the discovery of
the
issues/bugs and the time they are resolved, Wikimedia in my opinion
is
instrumental in turning the objections against specific issues into resistance against the product as a whole.
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Magnus Manske magnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
Anthony, it does seem you've missed some of which I wrote in this
thread. I
have no problem with specific criticism where it is deserved, and
I
do
well
remember that the Visual Editor, in its early incarnation, was not
quite
up
to the job.
What I do have a problem with is people fixating on some technical
or
early-lifecycle issues, declaring the entire thing worthless, even dangerous, and spreading that view around. This behaviour, I have
seen
time
and again, with the Media Viewer, with Wikidata.
It's bad because it's broken - let's come together and fix it.
It's bad because ... well, everyone says it's bad. And new. And
Not
Made
Here. THAT is a problem, and not a technological one.
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
> Magnus, you've missed the point of the visual editor revolt. A
couple
of
> people here have tried to explain that to you, politely. And
you're
> persisting with your idée fixe. > > There were two parts to the visual editor catastrophe, actually.
The
> product wasn't ready for anyone to use. Not veteran editors. Not
newbies.
> Newbies who used it were less likely to successfully complete an
edit.
It
> was broken, and the WMF insisted we had to use it. > > The second part of the problem was arrogance. Yes, a few editors
were
> unnecessarily rude about the product and the developers. But then
most
of
> the developers and tech staff who dealt with the community
arrogantly
> characterised *anyone* who complained about the product as an
ignorant,
> selfish Ludite - and you're persisting with that characterisation
now.
> > The WMF under Lila has learned the lessons from that, and they
have
> fostered a much healthier relationship between the developers and
the
> community. You clearly haven't learned all you might have. > > In fact, reading the arrogant responses from you here and in the
concurrent
> thread titled "How to disseminate free knowledge," and from Denny
in
> earlier threads addressing criticism of WikiData, it seems to me
there
is
> still a significant arrogance problem that needs addressing, at
least
over
> at WikiData. > > Some people may approach you arrogantly, maybe even insultingly,
about
an
> innovation, and I suppose you might be justified in talking down
to
them or
> ridiculing them (though I advise against it.). But if you can't
distinguish
> them from those who approach you with genuine concerns and
well-founded
> criticisms, then no matter how clever you think your technical
solutions
> are, you will soon find you're no more welcome here than those
WMF
staffers
> who thought insulting well-meaning critics was a good career
move.
> > Denny's contemptuous dismissal of valid criticisms of his
project,
and
your
> contemptuous dismissal of the valid criticisms of the early
visual
editor
> and its launch are both very disappointing. > > Anthony Cole > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Magnus Manske < > magnusmanske@googlemail.com> > wrote: > > > The iPhone was a commercial success because it let you do the
basic
> > functions easily and intuitively, and looked shiny at the same
time.
We
> do > > not charge a price; our "win" comes by people using our
product.
If
we
> can > > present the product in such a way that more people use it, it
is
a
> success > > for us. > > > > I do stand by my example :-) > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:37 PM Michael Peel <
email@mikepeel.net>
> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 18 Jan 2016, at 22:35, Magnus Manske <
magnusmanske@googlemail.com
> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > As one can be overly conservative, one can also be overly > > enthusiastic. I > > > > would hope the Foundation by now understands better how to
handle
new
> > > > software releases. Apple here shows the way: Basic
functionality,
but
> > > > working smoothly first. > > > > > > But at a huge cost premium? I'm not sure that's a good
example
to
make
> > > here. :-/ > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe:
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