On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:27 PM Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Magnus.
I'm re-reading this thread and just noticed you linked me to an essay [1]
earlier. I'm sorry, I didn't realise at the time that you were addressing
me.
Comments have closed there, so I'll post my thoughts here. You describe a
formula for measuring how well Wikipedia is supported by reliable sources.
Basically, correct me if this is wrong, you presume that each sentence
contains one statement of fact and compare the number of sentences with the
number of footnote markers. That ratio is what you call the references per
statement (RPS) ratio. You have another formula for arriving at the RPS
ratio for Wikidata statements. You then compare the RPS ratios of
en.Wikipedia featured articles with the RPS ratios of their associated
Wikidata items. And drew conclusions from that latter comparison.
Many of the Wikipedia articles I write have a low RPS ratio because whole
paragraphs are supported by one reference, whose footnote marker appears
only once at the end of the paragraph.
Which is why I am counting reference markers within the paragraphs, not
references at the end. Every <ref> is sacred ;-)
Actually, I think my statement count for entire Wikipedia articles is low
(and thus, favourable to Wikipedia). Take jsut the first sentence at
This sentence alone contains nine statements (first names, last name, birth
date, death date, nationality, the fact he's human, and three occupations).
But I would only count that as one statement, as it is one sentence. This
reduces the number of statements I count in the article, but the number of
references (btw, only one in the entire lead section) remains constant,
thus pushing the RPS ratio in favour of Wikipedia.
But, really, it doesn't matter. The arguments that "it's a wiki it should
be unreliable", or "Wikipedia is worse" are not really very valid
arguments.
I agree. Which is why I never made such arguments. Please don't put them in
my mouth; I don't know you well enough for that.
The sound argument coming from above is the cry from Gerrard and others
that it is hideously difficult to add citations to Wikidata sources. If
that is so, you should fix that.
Actually, it is easy to add references to Wikidata, certainly not more
difficult than adding them to Wikipedia. I have written bots and
drag'n'drop scripts to make it even easier. It is a little fiiddly to add
book references, but still reasoably possible.
What /is/ difficult is to do this automatically, by bot. But pick a random
Wikidata entry, and with a little googling, many statements can be
referenced to URLs. But this takes time.
Which brings me back to my blog post: Even after ~3 years, Wikidata is
referenced not too badly, compared to Wikipedia. And if we have learned one
thing from Wikipedia, it is that the state in general, and references in
particular, will improve over time.
So to everyone who disses Wikidata because of "missing references", I say:
1. You're wrong (it's already OK)
2. Patience (it will get even better)
Cheers,
Magnus
1.
http://magnusmanske.de/wordpress/?p=378
Anthony Cole
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Andre Engels <andreengels(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
The issue is that you are framing all objections
to be of the "it's
new, so it's bad" crowd. I'm not even convinced that such a crowd
exists, let alone that it is the mainstream of community is behind it,
as you seem to imply. To be honest, as a member of the community who
had a negative opinion about the first released version of visual
editor, I feel personally insulted by your statements. Which I had to
be, because I know you have done many good things.
And how would you want to "come together and fix it"? Your average
Wikipedia/other project editor does not have the software engineering
skills to just go and repair the Mediawiki code, and even if they did,
they would not have the power to make their repairs go life in short
term (and before I'm misunderstood, I am not complaining about that,
it is entirely logical and doing it differently would probably cause
disasters). They can of course complain, and file bug reports
etcetera, but they have no idea what will happen with them.
I think a big part of the blame lies with Wikimedia's way of working
in this, at least that's what I see in the Imageviewer case. People
see issues, and want them resolved. But some of those issues are so
large that they do not want the product at all *until they are
resolved*. By not only using the user as a beta tester, but also
forcing the product on them in the period between the discovery of the
issues/bugs and the time they are resolved, Wikimedia in my opinion is
instrumental in turning the objections against specific issues into
resistance against the product as a whole.
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Magnus Manske
<magnusmanske(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
Anthony, it does seem you've missed some of
which I wrote in this
thread. I
have no problem with specific criticism where it
is deserved, and I do
well
> remember that the Visual Editor, in its early incarnation, was not
quite
up
to the job.
What I do have a problem with is people fixating on some technical or
early-lifecycle issues, declaring the entire thing worthless, even
dangerous, and spreading that view around. This behaviour, I have seen
time
> and again, with the Media Viewer, with Wikidata.
>
> It's bad because it's broken - let's come together and fix it.
>
> It's bad because ... well, everyone says it's bad. And new. And Not
Made
Here.
THAT is a problem, and not a technological one.
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> Magnus, you've missed the point of the visual editor revolt. A couple
of
>
people here have tried to explain that to you, politely. And you're
> persisting with your idée fixe.
>
> There were two parts to the visual editor catastrophe, actually. The
> product wasn't ready for anyone to use. Not veteran editors. Not
newbies.
> Newbies who used it were less likely to
successfully complete an edit.
It
> was broken, and the WMF insisted we had to
use it.
>
> The second part of the problem was arrogance. Yes, a few editors were
> unnecessarily rude about the product and the developers. But then most
of
>> the developers and tech staff who dealt with the community arrogantly
>> characterised *anyone* who complained about the product as an
ignorant,
>
selfish Ludite - and you're persisting with that characterisation now.
>
> The WMF under Lila has learned the lessons from that, and they have
> fostered a much healthier relationship between the developers and the
> community. You clearly haven't learned all you might have.
>
> In fact, reading the arrogant responses from you here and in the
concurrent
> thread titled "How to disseminate free
knowledge," and from Denny in
> earlier threads addressing criticism of WikiData, it seems to me there
is
> still a significant arrogance problem that
needs addressing, at least
over
> at WikiData.
>
> Some people may approach you arrogantly, maybe even insultingly, about
an
> innovation, and I suppose you might be
justified in talking down to
them or
> ridiculing them (though I advise against
it.). But if you can't
distinguish
>> them from those who approach you with genuine concerns and
well-founded
>> criticisms, then no matter how clever
you think your technical
solutions
> are,
you will soon find you're no more welcome here than those WMF
staffers
> who thought insulting well-meaning critics
was a good career move.
>
> Denny's contemptuous dismissal of valid criticisms of his project, and
your
> contemptuous dismissal of the valid
criticisms of the early visual
editor
> and its launch are both very disappointing.
>
> Anthony Cole
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Magnus Manske <
> magnusmanske(a)googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The iPhone was a commercial success because it let you do the basic
> > functions easily and intuitively, and looked shiny at the same time.
We
>> do
>> > not charge a price; our "win" comes by people using our product.
If
we
> can
> > present the product in such a way that more people use it, it is a
> success
> > for us.
> >
> > I do stand by my example :-)
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:37 PM Michael Peel <email(a)mikepeel.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > On 18 Jan 2016, at 22:35, Magnus Manske <
magnusmanske(a)googlemail.com
>> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > As one can be overly conservative, one can also be overly
>> > enthusiastic. I
>> > > > would hope the Foundation by now understands better how to
handle
new
>> > > > software releases. Apple here shows the way: Basic
functionality,
but
> > > > working smoothly first.
> > >
> > > But at a huge cost premium? I'm not sure that's a good example to
make
> > > here. :-/
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mike
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