Gerard, you and I agree on most of these points. Certainly, there is room
for improvement on intra-Wikimedia search, and such work is important, and
I would assume more pressing for non-English projects. And I agree, it is
quite possible Siko's concerns about integrity are not directly related to
the Knowledge Engine. (If they are unrelated, that would only more strongly
suggest there are fundamental issues to be addressed around integrity;
multiple issues would be worse than isolated incidents.)
But none of your points relate to whether Wikimedia leadership has been
honest and forthright in its public communications about the Knowledge
Engine. That is my concern here.
Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Feb 15, 2016 9:11 AM, "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
The notion that WMF should out google Google is stupid, certainly at that
kind of money. Search in the Wikimedia Foundation is much better but it is
still easy for Magnus (for some time now) to improve the search results
considerably.
The notion that search should not be strategic is laughable. Jane said that
she uses Google to search results in our project because it does a better
job. She searches in English !! Now consider searching in Tamil it finds a
lot more than only results in Tamil. Then apply this to our aim; provide
the sum of all knowledge.
Yes Siko left. It does however not follow that this has to do with grant of
the Knight foundation. Yes she is outspoken in what she says but it does
not follow that everything good is suspect. When James Heilman says that he
has an issue with the focus on search, that is different. It does still not
follow that we do a good job on search or that the additional effort as
described in the Knight grant is not an important persuit.
Thanks,
GerardM
Thanks,
GerardM
On 15 February 2016 at 17:57, Pete Forsyth <peteforsyth(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Lila,
The confusion, as you will surely agree, is understandable given the
scattershot and often contradictory information provided by WMF to
differing audiences. Above all, I hope the next volley of communication
will address the central contradictions between what you and Jimmy Wales
publicly stated prior to the publication of the grant application, and
the
words in the application itself.
I will quote these below, but first to underscore the importance: when
Siko
questioned the integrity of the organization,
these are the apparent
willful lies that came to mind for me.
-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
Quotes:
"To make this very clear: no one in top positions has proposed or is
proposing that WMF should get into the general "searching" or to try to
"be
google". It's an interesting
hypothetical which has not been part of any
serious strategy proposal, nor even discussed at the board level, nor
proposed to the board by staff, nor a part of any grant, etc. It's a
total
lie." -J. Wales, Feb. 1
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=p…
"Let’s all treat each other withcivility
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Civility> and etiquette
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Etiquette>, and see if we can
collaborate
to build a consensus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Consensus> on the
WMF’s project direction to help readers discover the high quality content
and knowledge our editors are creating." - L. Tretikov, Feb. 1
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&a…
"Knowledge Engine By Wikipedia is a federated knowledge engine that will
give users the most reliable and most trustworthy public information
channel on the web, applying fundamentals of transparent Wiki-based
systems
to surfacing the most relevant and important
information." Grant
application, August 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-10/In_fo…
On Feb 15, 2016 2:35 AM, "Lila
Tretikov" <lila(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Hi Gnangarra,
>
> Thank you for forwarding, the authors of the article seem to be
confused
about the
nature of the project. Our Comms team is working to clarify
this.
> Please expect to see something from us in next few days.
>
> Lila
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
FYI making main stream media
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-15/wikimedia-foundation-aims-to-take-…
>
> On 14 February 2016 at 00:49, Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > Anne, we're talking about almost the same thing, but not exactly. I
say
>
"advised" you say "consulted". "Consulted" implies
soliciting or
expecting
> some kind of response or engagement - probably
> approval/disapproval/critique/input. "Advised" means they got the
memo. I
> > think "advised" is enough, and if the board wants more engagement,
they
> > can
> > > initiate it - presuming the notification is clear and
comprehensive,
of
> > course.
> >
> > Anthony Cole
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Risker <risker.wp(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I'm not sure about that, Anthony. By "consulted", I
would
mean
> >
something to the effect of "We're looking at applying to XX for a
grant
> > of
> > > $YYY to do ZZZ" and asking the Board if they would be likely to
agree
> > to
> > > > accept such a grant if the application is successful. The grant
> > > > application, evaluation and approval process is costly in both
time
> and
> > > > resources, and for both the applicant and the grantmaker. Being
> > informed
> > > > that a grant has been approved sounds more like a fait accompli
> > situation
> > > > for the Board - they look petty and ungrateful if they say no,
even
if
> they
> > don't think it was a reasonable grant application. In this case,
we're
> > only dealing with $250,000. What if
this was $1 million? $10
million?
> >
> > I think it is healthier for everyone if the Board is properly
consulted
> > before the application is submitted.
(And again, I note that we
don't
> > know
> > > how much was actually requested in this case, only what was
granted.)
> > > >
> > > > Risker/Anne
> > > >
> > > > On 12 February 2016 at 21:23, Anthony Cole
<ahcoleecu(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Anne, regarding:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Since the Board must approve acceptance of any donations
over
> > $100,000
> > > > > USD, it seems to be obvious that they should be consulted and
> > possibly
> > > > > should actively approve any grant applications where the dollar
> value
> > > > > sought is higher than that amount."
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure that the board should be *consulted* ahead of
such
> > > > > applications' or should prior-approve all such applications.
That
> > > seems a
> > > > > bit like micromanagement. But it makes sense to me for the
board
to
> be
> > > > *advised
> > > > *of such applications and when they're being actively
contemplated
> or
> > > > > prepared.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anthony Cole
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Risker
<risker.wp(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sorry to hear that you feel this way, Gerard. I
personally
would
> > like
> > > > to feel more assured that the WMF is looking into the longer
future
> > and
> > > > > actively plannning for the day that donations no longer
support a
> > > large
> > > > > > staff doing lots of things.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am concerned today that the team specifically tasked to
work
> > > closely
> > > > > with
> > > > > > so many elements of the community has lost 7% of its staff,
and
> 30%
> > > of
> > > > > its
> > > > > > leaders, in a single week. This should be a concern in any
> > > > organization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With respect to the Knight grant - I know that many times
grant
> > > > > > applications are
made for considerably more than is given,
and
I
am
> > > > > interested to know how much the WMF requested in the first
place.
> > I
> > > > > would
> > > > > > also like to know whether or not the Board was formally
advised
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > request before it was submitted. Since the Board must
approve
> > > > acceptance
> > > > > > of any donations over $100,000 USD, it seems to be obvious
that
> > they
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be consulted and possibly should actively approve any
grant
> > > > applications
> > > > > > where the dollar value sought is higher than that amount.
I
> don't
> > > > > believe
> > > > > > the current policies require advance approval or even
advance
> > > > > notification,
> > > > > > though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Risker/Anne
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 03:54, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > > gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > I am not complaining. I point out that all this huha
does
not
> get
> > > us
> > > > > > > anywhere. I am not afraid to give an opinion and I am
not
> afraid
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > contrarian when I think it makes sense. Yes, things
happened
> that
> > > > were
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > beautiful. They are not what upset me. What upsets me
is
that
> > > people
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > Siko and Anna are leaving. Because they are part of
"my"
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > Foundation. What upsets me is that I routinely use
Magnus's
> tool
> > > and
> > > > > > > process hundreds of thousands of records and am to
understand
> > that
> > > > > > official
> > > > > > > query is stunted and does not allow for this
"because it
was
not
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > design" and it is then pointed out that it takes money
to
solve
> > > this...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My point is that baying for blood is not what helps us
forward.
>
What
> > I
> > > do
> > > > > know is that when sheer negativity is not coupled with an
ability
> to
> > > stop
> > > > > and move forward, we will get in a downward spiral. I fault
Pine
> > for
> > > > not
> > > > > > being able to stop. What I wish for is for people like Anna
and
> > > Siko
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > money for our environment and not for an endowment.
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > GerardM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 09:35, Michel Vuijlsteke <
> > wikipedia(a)zog.org
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gerard,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was waiting for this mail. For me personally,
your
> > complaining
> > > is
> > > > > > > > achieving exactly the opposite of what you
think.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It sounds as if you'd much rather prefer to
stick your
head
in
> > the
> > > > sand
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > hope things will blow over. "Move along, nothing
to see
here
> --
> > > oh
> > > > > > look!
> > > > > > > > something positive over there!" is not going
to solve
> anything.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Michel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 09:24, Gerard Meijssen
<
> > > > > > gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > > > > Pine as you are talking about "self
inflicting wounds"
I
> take
> > > it
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > not talking in your personal capacity. When
is it
enough
> for
> > > you?
> > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > you going to talk about positive things,
things that
will
>
move
> > us
> > > > > > > forward.
> > > > > > > > Why ask for blood and more blood? What is it that
you
hope
to
> > > > > achieve?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Who do you represent in this unending litany of
negativity
and
> > what
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > you achieved in this way? When Lila was engaged in her
role,
> > she
> > > > was
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > direct in a different direction and she is doing
that.
You
> may
> > > not
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > and that is ok.
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > GerardM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 08:43, Pine W <
wiki.pine(a)gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dariusz, thanks for continuing to
engage here.
Besides
the
> > good
> > > > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > > that others have asked, I'll add a few:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. If the Knowledge Engine is such an
important
project,
> why
> > is
> > > > it
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > mentioned in
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16
> > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2. I realize that as a percentage of
the WMF budget,
> $250k
> > > is a
> > > > > > > > > relatively
> > > > > > > > > > small number. As others have said, this
is not a
reason
> for
> > > > > opacity
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > it, nor a reason for not having a
conversation with
the
> > community
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > something so strategically important as a
decision to
explore
> > the
> > > > > > > question
> > > > > > > > of "Would users go to Wikipedia if it were
an open
channel
> > > beyond
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > encyclopedia?" It's one thing to
have a blue-sky
exercise
> > > > thinking
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > possibilities, and another thing to take a
$250k step
in
> > that
> > > > > > > > direction,
> > > > > > > > > > especially without consulting the
community.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3. I am getting tired about seeing bad
news in
general
>
about
> > > WMF
> > > > > > > > > governance, planning, and turnover. I am
curious how
you
> plan
> > > to
> > > > > > > address
> > > > > > > > > those issues. Like you, I would rather that
we be
talking
> > > about
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > movement plans for the next 10 years.
However, it's
> > difficult
> > > > to
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > conversations when WMF is making so
many
self-inflicted
> > > wounds.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > round of resignations is of respectable
people from
the
WMF
> > staff
> > > > is
> > > > > > > making
> > > > > > > > the situation that much more concerning and that
much
more
> > > > > difficult
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > recover from. It seems to me that WMF
leadership has
lost
> > > > control
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > situation, and I'd like to hear
what the recovery
plan
> is.
> > > > > > > Personally,
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > feel that we need leadership that can
build good
> > > relationships
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > staff and community, is transparent by
default, and
is
> capable
> > of
> > > > > > > restoring
> > > > > > > > the credibility of the organization's
planning,
execution,
> and
> > > > > > goodwill.
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > think that we may need new leadership to make
that
happen.
> I
> > am
> > > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > to hear your thoughts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Pine
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Dariusz
Jemielniak <
> > > > > > darekj(a)alk.edu.pl
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 11.02.2016 10:23 PM "SarahSV"
<
sarahsv.wiki(a)gmail.com>
> >
> > napisał(a):
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > > Dariusz,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > T
> > > > > > > > > > he grant application doesn't
restrict the search
engine
> to
> > > > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > > > > > projects. It says that the "Knowledge
Engine by
Wikipedia
> > [is
> > > > a]
> > > > > > > system
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > discovering reliable and trustworthy
public
information
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Internet.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that the top
range could
> potentially
> > be
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > open/public
> > > > > > > > > > > resources, but this is the far
stretched total
goal,
and
> > still
> > > > not
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > general search engine of all content
including
commercial
> > one.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And a rrasonable realistic outcome can be
just
improving
> > our
> > > > > > searches
> > > > > > > > > > across projects.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I can't comment on the initial
ideas or goals, as I
was
> > not
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Board
> > > > > > > > > > > before August 2015, but this is
what I understand
we
> > build
> > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > .
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The document says the
"Search Engine by
Wikipedia"
budget
> > for
> > > > > > > 2015–2016
> > > > > > > > > ($2.4 million) was approved by the board.
Can you
point
> us
> > > to
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > board
> > > > > > > > > > meeting approved it and what was
discussed there?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I dont recall this specifically, and
I'm going to
elude
> > this
> > > > > > question
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > going to sleep (and hoping someone
better informed
may
> > > pick).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Good night!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dj
> > > > > > > > > > >
_______________________________________________
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> > --
> > GN.
> > President Wikimedia Australia
> > WMAU:
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> > Photo Gallery:
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Wikimedia Foundation
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