Gerard, you and I agree on most of these points. Certainly, there is room for improvement on intra-Wikimedia search, and such work is important, and I would assume more pressing for non-English projects. And I agree, it is quite possible Siko's concerns about integrity are not directly related to the Knowledge Engine. (If they are unrelated, that would only more strongly suggest there are fundamental issues to be addressed around integrity; multiple issues would be worse than isolated incidents.)
But none of your points relate to whether Wikimedia leadership has been honest and forthright in its public communications about the Knowledge Engine. That is my concern here.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Feb 15, 2016 9:11 AM, "Gerard Meijssen" gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The notion that WMF should out google Google is stupid, certainly at that kind of money. Search in the Wikimedia Foundation is much better but it is still easy for Magnus (for some time now) to improve the search results considerably.
The notion that search should not be strategic is laughable. Jane said that she uses Google to search results in our project because it does a better job. She searches in English !! Now consider searching in Tamil it finds a lot more than only results in Tamil. Then apply this to our aim; provide the sum of all knowledge.
Yes Siko left. It does however not follow that this has to do with grant of the Knight foundation. Yes she is outspoken in what she says but it does not follow that everything good is suspect. When James Heilman says that he has an issue with the focus on search, that is different. It does still not follow that we do a good job on search or that the additional effort as described in the Knight grant is not an important persuit. Thanks, GerardM Thanks, GerardM
On 15 February 2016 at 17:57, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Lila,
The confusion, as you will surely agree, is understandable given the scattershot and often contradictory information provided by WMF to differing audiences. Above all, I hope the next volley of communication will address the central contradictions between what you and Jimmy Wales publicly stated prior to the publication of the grant application, and
the
words in the application itself.
I will quote these below, but first to underscore the importance: when
Siko
questioned the integrity of the organization, these are the apparent willful lies that came to mind for me.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
Quotes:
"To make this very clear: no one in top positions has proposed or is proposing that WMF should get into the general "searching" or to try to
"be
google". It's an interesting hypothetical which has not been part of any serious strategy proposal, nor even discussed at the board level, nor proposed to the board by staff, nor a part of any grant, etc. It's a
total
lie." -J. Wales, Feb. 1
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=pr...
"Let’s all treat each other withcivility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Civility and etiquette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Etiquette, and see if we can collaborate to build a consensus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Consensus on the WMF’s project direction to help readers discover the high quality content and knowledge our editors are creating." - L. Tretikov, Feb. 1
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&am...
"Knowledge Engine By Wikipedia is a federated knowledge engine that will give users the most reliable and most trustworthy public information channel on the web, applying fundamentals of transparent Wiki-based
systems
to surfacing the most relevant and important information." Grant application, August 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-10/In_foc...
On Feb 15, 2016 2:35 AM, "Lila Tretikov" lila@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Gnangarra,
Thank you for forwarding, the authors of the article seem to be
confused
about the nature of the project. Our Comms team is working to clarify
this.
Please expect to see something from us in next few days.
Lila
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
FYI making main stream media
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-15/wikimedia-foundation-aims-to-take-o...
On 14 February 2016 at 00:49, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
Anne, we're talking about almost the same thing, but not exactly. I
say
"advised" you say "consulted". "Consulted" implies soliciting or
expecting
some kind of response or engagement - probably approval/disapproval/critique/input. "Advised" means they got the
memo. I
think "advised" is enough, and if the board wants more engagement,
they
can
initiate it - presuming the notification is clear and
comprehensive,
of
course.
Anthony Cole
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com
wrote:
Well, I'm not sure about that, Anthony. By "consulted", I would
mean
something to the effect of "We're looking at applying to XX for a
grant
of
$YYY to do ZZZ" and asking the Board if they would be likely to
agree
to
accept such a grant if the application is successful. The grant application, evaluation and approval process is costly in both
time
and
resources, and for both the applicant and the grantmaker. Being
informed
that a grant has been approved sounds more like a fait accompli
situation
for the Board - they look petty and ungrateful if they say no,
even
if
they
don't think it was a reasonable grant application. In this case,
we're
only dealing with $250,000. What if this was $1 million? $10
million?
I think it is healthier for everyone if the Board is properly
consulted
before the application is submitted. (And again, I note that we
don't
know
how much was actually requested in this case, only what was
granted.)
Risker/Anne
On 12 February 2016 at 21:23, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com
wrote:
> Anne, regarding: > > "Since the Board must approve acceptance of any donations over
$100,000
> USD, it seems to be obvious that they should be consulted and
possibly
> should actively approve any grant applications where the dollar
value
> sought is higher than that amount." > > I'm not sure that the board should be *consulted* ahead of such > applications' or should prior-approve all such applications.
That
seems a
> bit like micromanagement. But it makes sense to me for the
board
to
be
> *advised > *of such applications and when they're being actively
contemplated
or
> prepared. > > Anthony Cole > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > I'm sorry to hear that you feel this way, Gerard. I
personally
would
like > > to feel more assured that the WMF is looking into the longer
future
and
> > actively plannning for the day that donations no longer
support a
large
> > staff doing lots of things. > > > > I am concerned today that the team specifically tasked to
work
closely
> with > > so many elements of the community has lost 7% of its staff,
and
30%
of
> its > > leaders, in a single week. This should be a concern in any organization. > > > > With respect to the Knight grant - I know that many times
grant
> > applications are made for considerably more than is given,
and
I
am
> > interested to know how much the WMF requested in the first
place.
I
> would > > also like to know whether or not the Board was formally
advised
of
the
> > request before it was submitted. Since the Board must
approve
acceptance > > of any donations over $100,000 USD, it seems to be obvious
that
they
> should > > be consulted and possibly should actively approve any grant applications > > where the dollar value sought is higher than that amount. I
don't
> believe > > the current policies require advance approval or even advance > notification, > > though. > > > > Risker/Anne > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 03:54, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hoi, > > > I am not complaining. I point out that all this huha does
not
get
us
> > > anywhere. I am not afraid to give an opinion and I am not
afraid
to
be > a > > > contrarian when I think it makes sense. Yes, things
happened
that
were > > not > > > beautiful. They are not what upset me. What upsets me is
that
people
> like > > > Siko and Anna are leaving. Because they are part of "my"
Wikimedia
> > > Foundation. What upsets me is that I routinely use Magnus's
tool
and
> > > process hundreds of thousands of records and am to
understand
that
> > official > > > query is stunted and does not allow for this "because it
was
not
in
the > > > design" and it is then pointed out that it takes money to
solve
this... > > > > > > My point is that baying for blood is not what helps us
forward.
What
I > do > > > know is that when sheer negativity is not coupled with an
ability
to
> stop > > > and move forward, we will get in a downward spiral. I fault
Pine
for
> not > > > being able to stop. What I wish for is for people like Anna
and
Siko
> and > > > money for our environment and not for an endowment. > > > Thanks, > > > GerardM > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 09:35, Michel Vuijlsteke <
wikipedia@zog.org
> > wrote: > > > > > > > Gerard, > > > > > > > > I was waiting for this mail. For me personally, your
complaining
is
> > > > achieving exactly the opposite of what you think. > > > > > > > > It sounds as if you'd much rather prefer to stick your
head
in
the
> sand > > > and > > > > hope things will blow over. "Move along, nothing to see
here
--
oh
> > look! > > > > something positive over there!" is not going to solve
anything.
> > > > > > > > Michel > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 09:24, Gerard Meijssen < > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > > Pine as you are talking about "self inflicting wounds"
I
take
it
> you > > > are > > > > > not talking in your personal capacity. When is it
enough
for
you?
> > When > > > > are > > > > > you going to talk about positive things, things that
will
move
us
> > > > forward. > > > > > Why ask for blood and more blood? What is it that you
hope
to
> > achieve? > > > > > > > > > > Who do you represent in this unending litany of
negativity
and
what > > > have > > > > > you achieved in this way? When Lila was engaged in her
role,
she
> was > > to > > > > > direct in a different direction and she is doing that.
You
may
not > > like > > > > it > > > > > and that is ok. > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > > > On 12 February 2016 at 08:43, Pine W <
wiki.pine@gmail.com>
wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dariusz, thanks for continuing to engage here.
Besides
the
good
> > > > questions > > > > > > that others have asked, I'll add a few: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. If the Knowledge Engine is such an important
project,
why
is
> it > > > not > > > > > > mentioned in > > > > > > > > > > > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2015-16
> > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. I realize that as a percentage of the WMF budget,
$250k
is a
> > > > > relatively > > > > > > small number. As others have said, this is not a
reason
for
> opacity > > > > about > > > > > > it, nor a reason for not having a conversation with
the
community > > > about > > > > > > something so strategically important as a decision to
explore
the > > > > > question > > > > > > of "Would users go to Wikipedia if it were an open
channel
beyond > > an > > > > > > encyclopedia?" It's one thing to have a blue-sky
exercise
> thinking > > > > about > > > > > > possibilities, and another thing to take a $250k step
in
that
> > > > direction, > > > > > > especially without consulting the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. I am getting tired about seeing bad news in
general
about
WMF > > > > > > governance, planning, and turnover. I am curious how
you
plan
to > > > > address > > > > > > those issues. Like you, I would rather that we be
talking
about
> our > > > > > > movement plans for the next 10 years. However, it's
difficult
to > > have > > > > > those > > > > > > conversations when WMF is making so many
self-inflicted
wounds.
> The > > > > > recent > > > > > > round of resignations is of respectable people from
the
WMF
staff > > is > > > > > making > > > > > > the situation that much more concerning and that much
more
> > difficult > > > to > > > > > > recover from. It seems to me that WMF leadership has
lost
control > > of > > > > this > > > > > > situation, and I'd like to hear what the recovery
plan
is.
> > > Personally, > > > > I > > > > > > feel that we need leadership that can build good
relationships
> with > > > the > > > > > > staff and community, is transparent by default, and
is
capable
of > > > > > restoring > > > > > > the credibility of the organization's planning,
execution,
and
> > > > goodwill. > > > > > I > > > > > > think that we may need new leadership to make that
happen.
I
am
> > > > > interested > > > > > > to hear your thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak < > > > darekj@alk.edu.pl > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11.02.2016 10:23 PM "SarahSV" <
sarahsv.wiki@gmail.com>
> > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Dariusz, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > he grant application doesn't restrict the search
engine
to
> > > > Wikimedia > > > > > > > projects. It says that the "Knowledge Engine by
Wikipedia
[is
> a] > > > > system > > > > > > for > > > > > > > discovering reliable and trustworthy public
information
on
the > > > > > Internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that the top range could
potentially
be
all > > > > > > open/public > > > > > > > resources, but this is the far stretched total
goal,
and
still > > not > > > a > > > > > > > general search engine of all content including
commercial
one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And a rrasonable realistic outcome can be just
improving
our
> > > searches > > > > > > > across projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't comment on the initial ideas or goals, as I
was
not
on > > the > > > > > Board > > > > > > > before August 2015, but this is what I understand
we
build
now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The document says the "Search Engine by
Wikipedia"
budget
for > > > > > 2015–2016 > > > > > > > ($2.4 million) was approved by the board. Can you
point
us
to > > > which > > > > > > board > > > > > > > meeting approved it and what was discussed there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont recall this specifically, and I'm going to
elude
this
> > > question > > > > > by > > > > > > > going to sleep (and hoping someone better informed
may
pick).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good night! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dj > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > >
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