If people don't want me to discuss this here, of course we can take it elsewhere.
I only reply to this publicly to suggest that you and others help me out with that. For example, you have plenty of options beyond replying list-wide to communicate the very thing you're telling me below. As long as none of these concerns boil down to "Just shut up, Wil," I'm all for optimizing communication. I think it's interesting, however, that no one seems to think that messages containing +1's to other people saying thanks aren't a waste of bandwidth or not entirely appropriate for this list.
Thanks for the suggestion, in any case. ,Wil
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Wil, if you want to use email lists for your discussions, you may find a better reception if you use one of the project- or task-specific lists. There is a page on English Wikipedia with links to mailing lists that most closely relate to that project[1] and a more extensive list at Meta that describes lists for many other projects and specific areas of interest.[2] One is more likely to get a positive response when the audience is more accurately targeted.
You will probably find that a lot of practical questions you have asked could easily be answered at the English Wikipedia Teahouse page, where you have been invited. That would include questions about how to tell if something has been deleted from a page, how to read page histories, or even how to tell whether or not someone is WMF staff.
Risker
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mailing_lists
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Overview
On 28 May 2014 13:07, Wil Sinclair wllm@wllm.com wrote:
Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago:
" I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out.
Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. "
There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&p=96600#p9...
,Wil
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This
is
information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others.
Risker
On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair wllm@wllm.com wrote:
Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4680&start=150.
To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to "safety concerns" through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link.
In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on.
,Wil
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov lila@wikimedia.org wrote: ...
independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does
not
take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with
the
WMF
employees.
Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board.
I do not really understand the point being made about not "engaging" with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees.
Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement.
Fae
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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