Hi Pete, you do realize that Lila reads this list, right? That seems rather candid for someone who works so closely with the WMF.
If that was not for public eyes, you might consider a public apology. Not for your own professional interests, mind you, but because Lila's a person like the rest of us and she has feelings.
Best. ,Wil
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Ha! Awesome stuff. I wish I could find the one of CJ telling Will that his one and only task is to never let the press corps see that they've gotten under his skin...
What amazes me isn't anything about his behavior (he has yet to make a point that we haven't all talked through a zillion times, right? and he's not entirely wrong), but hers -- in just letting this go on. Is she unaware of what he's doing? If so, why hasn't anybody pointed it out to her yet? Or is she so confounded by the social dynamics that she really doesn't care if he stirs the pot before she (presumably) comes up with a plan for how to engage with the community, what issues to prioritize, etc.? What if she decides to hire somebody...with actual qualifications...to do a job along the lines of what he's already volunteered for? Do they then have to spar with him, and just accept him as a professional liability? Or can they "fire" him?? Some job they'd be walking into!
Of course I don't have much to go on yet, but it's looking like we ended up with an amateur, and that's pretty frightening. We've had tin ears at WMF for a long time, but at least they've had the virtue of a few years' experience. If she's got no keel on the open sea, who knows where her take on the community will wash up? Will it just be more of the "grease the squeakiest wheel" approach? It doesn't give me a lot of hope that she can chart a better course through the crippling dynamics of the last couple years.
Pete
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Wil Sinclair wllm@wllm.com wrote:
I'm going to give you a serious piece of advice here as someone who has held one of the most public position of "authority" on the English Wikipedia (the scare quotes are quite on purpose, ask me about them some day).
Thanks. I appreciate any advice.
Wikipedia Review and its successor WO are the roaming grounds of a diverse group of people, some of them with astute and sometimes insightful criticism about the failings of the Foundation's projects. On a surprisingly large number of occasions, the criticism there has led to exposing serious problems that desperately needed fixing, and some of the commentary can be downright painfully precise when pointing out the movement's gaffes.
I think you're right about this. That's why I participate there. I'd like to find out as much as I can about the movement.
This is the reason why, when I first got elected to the Arbitration Committee, I tought much as you do and felt it important to "keep an ear to the ground" as it were.
The problem with WO - and it's a fatal one - is one of motivation. The vast majority of participants there do not offer critique out of a desire to improve how we do things, or point at things that we are doing wrong with the aim of having them fixed; they do so out of spite, revenge or simple outright malice. It is no coincidence that the more prolific participants there are people who were excluded from the on-wiki discourse before joining: it is the rallying point of the malcontent. The *reason* why they are so often uncannily accurate in their "investigations" is because they are driven by an obsessive need to turn over every rock, pick apart every comment, and expose (with no regard for safety or privacy) those they deem to be their adversaries. Somtimes just to make a point and gloat but - too often - in order to harass, bully and threaten (and occasionally blackmail) participants in the projects.
Here's where I get confused. If they are exposing serious problems that desperately need fixing, then what does it matter what their motives are? They may or may not choose to be part of the solution, but if we want to build the healthiest community possible isn't it important that we know what's not going right. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I personally care more about the message than the messenger, so it seems to make sense for me to participate there, too, for the reasons you've mentioned above.
(And you need to be aware that, historically, those fora had a number of "private" boards restricted to the bigger participants, where the level of bile is much higher and much less veiled of legitimate criticism - so what you've seen to date is certainly the *tamest* that can be found on those sites).
Yes. You can see the private boards on the main forum page. They very graciously set up a temporary private forum for me to ask some of the members further questions about potential threats to my family once Lila's position was announced. This particular board was particularly productive. The people on that board were kind and helpful, although I don't know what goes on in the other boards. I have never tried to enter the other forums, but I'm assuming I wouldn't be allowed. Have you ever been on those boards?
The net result is that everything on those sites is tainted with bile and venom; and every opportunity to hurt is exploited mercilessly. You may *think* you can abstract that poison away from your participation, concentrating on the buried legitimate claims that can be found. You can't. It will grate on you, imperceptibly at first, but it will affect you.
Well, we'll have to see how I fare. It certainly hasn't bothered me so far. For that matter, some of the less-than-friendly responses on this list haven't bothered me either. I've been told many times that I'm persistently positive. ;)
Sure, they'll occasionally dig up something that desperately needed to be found and fixed - giving us the opportunity to right some wrong - but that's a side effect of their effort to dig up "dirt" to throw at their enemies. In practice, everything of value that bubbles up from WO will reach "mainstream" venues soon enough if it was legitimate.
But what if this problem weren't discovered and fixed? Couldn't it turn in to a larger problem down the road? If we all work on our problems in good faith, a few inevitable mistakes like we've seen in the past won't matter; the positive news should far outweigh the negative.
So yeah. You're of course perfectly *allowed* to participate in those venues, but you shouldn't be surprised if that makes many in the movement weary as - historically - that has proven over and over to be a very bad idea.
-- Marc
Thanks again for the advice. I will continue to participate there, because it happens to work for me. I realize it's not for everyone. For example, with all the trash talking on there, it certainly isn't for Lila. As I've mentioned, we are two *very* different people. I'm looking forward to working with you on WP, tho. I'll try to drop by your talk page to say Hi soon. Ta's!
,Wil
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