Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text

16 Oct 2009


      I don't think the impossibility of perfection is an argument against better accuracy.
Birgitte SB
--- On Thu, 10/15/09, Cecil cecilatwp@gmail.com wrote:
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From: Cecil cecilatwp@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text
To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library" wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 1:16 AM
Birgitte SB: please read ThomasV's
statement a little bit up this thread, the one where he
explains why and for what level 0 was introduced in the
beginning. That is one of the problems. Each community
considers something different to fall among that state.
With the last PR2-update it suddenly was no more possible
to switch already finished projects to PR2, because it was
disabled for a person to immediately select
'finished'-state. As an example (I did that switch
to PR2 just a few days before):  http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Seite:De_Neue_Thalia_Band1_385.jpg
was immediately set to finished because the poem was already
proofreaded twice (http://de.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Das_Bildni%C3%9F&action=histo...).
But it belonged to a large story collection (http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Neue_Thalia,_Erster_Band)
which also is just a part of seven such books. They are part
of our currently most important community project which
should be finished until November 10th. Because of the short
time left all books were switched to PR2 so that more people
can work on them and also have a better overview which
poem/story/... in which book is already finished and which
not. I finished the whole switch just a few days before the
mediawiki-update. A few days later I would not have been
able anymore to set the pages to 'finished'.
When I complained about that to ThomasV, he suggested to
use level 0 for it, since it is a finished page and no more
proofreading needs to be done. He would even rename the
'without text' to fit it better and the pages still
would land in category 'finished'.
Does this sound to you like the statistics of this level
would be useable to determine how many pages a project has
finished and how many there are that are just empty? Not to
me. So those people who for some reason need statistics
wouldn't be able to get a real result out of it anyway,
because one projects uses it for really empty pages, the
other one also for those with less than ~10 words and the
next one for pages that do not need proofread for some or
the other reason, even if they are full of text.
Cecil
(The other solution suggested by ThomasV would have been to
create a list of all pages and 
which state they are and then let a bot or a second user
correct the state
of those pages that I would not be able to do. The 7
Thalia-bands have
3279 pages full of text and a few more with index,
introduction, headers and first pages, so you can imagine
how difficult it would have been to
maintain those lists without any chaos and always obtain a
format that the bot can deal with.)
2009/10/14 Michael Jörgens joergens.mic@googlemail.com
Birgitte SB that was the reason,
why my text wasn't as polite as it should be. It sounded
off-topic for me.
joergens.mi
2009/10/14 Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com
Thank you for explaining, this
discussion would have been off-topic in the other thread.
 I am not someone that finds statistics to be a big deal,
but I have learned that others feel deeply about such
issues.  The statistics total all pages marked
"4" and report this as the number of pages a
subdomain has proofread and validated.  So when compared to
other subdomains which mark empty pages with "0"
the numbers of de.WS are slightly inflated.  The current
state of things is that other subdomains do not count empty
pages in their totals while de.WS does.  I appreciate your
introducing the situation to the local community.
Birgitte SB
--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Michael Jörgens joergens.mic@googlemail.com
wrote:
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From: Michael Jörgens joergens.mic@googlemail.com
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Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text
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To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free
library" wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 2:29 PM
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Sorry, that was my fault, I
didn't read
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the topic right, i thougt this discussion is still
part of
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the topic  [Wikisource-l]
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Proofreading.
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From
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my personal point of view, there is no difference
between
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this pages. I see no need to distinguish empty und
full
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pages. The final state means, all work needed is done
with
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this page.
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In
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general I like statistiks, but never mind,  I would
never
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count empty pages.
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On
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the other hand if others like to do, no problem in
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general.
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I
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think we will introduce this question to our community
and
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we will make a decision. Changes can be done by bot,
as I
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understand.
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sincerly
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joergens.mi
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2009/10/14 Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com
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I sorry you find the concerns other people have to be
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"empty" and "silly".  Perhaps in
the
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future you could ignore the threads on smaller issues
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without comment.  It would really help keep things
more
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congenial.
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Birgitte SB
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--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Michael Jörgens joergens.mic@googlemail.com
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wrote:
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From: Michael Jörgens joergens.mic@googlemail.com
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Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
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without text
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To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the
free
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library" wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:15 PM
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Is there a need for
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this
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''empty discussion'' about empty
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pages
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here,
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The main point ist to find an for all acceptable
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way of working together with Thomas. In a way
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that Thomas is satisfied and feels comfortable,
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taking the
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problems he see's into concern and the
problems
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some
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projects have.
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And it should be a compromise that all can
accept,
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without feeling overruled by others.
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With this in the background the other discussion
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is simply silly.  Some are talking about some
pages,
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which
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in total are below 1%, there are bigger issues
to
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solve.
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sincerly joergens.mi
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2009/10/14 Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com
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I
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disagree in general with the idea that everyone
must
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conform.  There is room for the communities to
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develop
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their own solutions.  Hopefully when one
community
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proves
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that some solution has good results others will
learn
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from
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their experience and adopt it.  But there needs
to be
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room
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for experimentation.
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In this specific case, it seems to me this is
more of
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legacy issue on de.WS rather than a deliberate
choice.
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If
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they (as well as every other subdomains) conform
to
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the
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standards the majority of Wikisources use then
the
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comparative numbers between Wikisources will be
more
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accurate.  I don't see a strong reason for
de.WS
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deciding to not conform here.  But it is a bunch
of
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tedious
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work and it should be thoroughly discussed.  It
would
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be
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very nice if de.WS took the time to consider the
issue
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and
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let us know what the consensus turns out to be.
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However we can always make a footnote when
people
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choose to
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count things differently and estimate with data
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crunching.
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(i.e. Of 1000 validated pages on the top three
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non-de.WS
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subdomains the average number of empty pages is
X
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(A%),
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therefore an estimate of de.WS validated
non-empty
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page is
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the given total minus the A% of the given total)
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This is
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not an unsolvable issue and I am sure sooner of
later
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some
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subdomain will discover a good reason to do
something
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differently.
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Birgitte SB
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--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Syagrius syagrius@gmx.fr
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From: Syagrius syagrius@gmx.fr
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Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without
text
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To: "discussion list for Wikisource,
the
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free
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library" wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 10:47 AM
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#yiv579852079 html, #yiv579852079
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{}#yiv579852079 html
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{width:100%;height:100%;margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv579852079
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{font-size:100.01%;font-family:Verdana,
Geneva,
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Arial,
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Helvetica,
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sans-serif;background-color:transparent;background-image:none;margin:0px;padding:5px;}#yiv579852079
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p {margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv579852079
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{font-size:12px;font-family:Verdana,
Geneva,
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Arial,
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Helvetica,
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sans-serif;background-color:#FFFFFF;}#yiv579852079 p
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{margin:0;padding:0;}#yiv579852079
blockquote
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{padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px;}#yiv579852079
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blockquote.quote {border-left:1px solid
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#CCC;padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;} If
the
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Wikisources have adopted
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some common rules, every sublanguage
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should follow it. On
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the other hand, I don't understand why
you
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don't
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want to transform these empty pages, since
en.ws
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and fr.ws
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already did it and a bot could do it very
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easily.
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There
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would be absolutely no loss of quality or
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credibility...
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Syagrius
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----- Message
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d'origine -----De : John
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VandenbergEnvoyés : 14.10.09 02:03À :
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discussion list for Wikisource,
the
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free
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libraryObjet : Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
without
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text On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:12
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AM, Cecil
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wrote:
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Syagrius, could you please explain why
this
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would
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be
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"irrespectuous toward
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other wikisources" when we mark
them as
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part
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of a
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'finished' project?
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It is not a part of the same work.
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Advertisements are a _different_ work, and
it has
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not
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been
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transcribed.
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It should be marked as a incomplete.
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Advertisements are also sources....
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http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Advertisements
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:-)
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--
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John Vandenberg
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text