I don't think the impossibility of perfection is an argument against better accuracy.
Birgitte SB
--- On Thu, 10/15/09, Cecil <cecilatwp(a)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Cecil <cecilatwp(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text
To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library"
<wikisource-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 1:16 AM
Birgitte SB: please read ThomasV's
statement a little bit up this thread, the one where he
explains why and for what level 0 was introduced in the
beginning. That is one of the problems. Each community
considers something different to fall among that state.
With the last PR2-update it suddenly was no more possible
to switch already finished projects to PR2, because it was
disabled for a person to immediately select
'finished'-state. As an example (I did that switch
to PR2 just a few days before):
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Seite:De_Neue_Thalia_Band1_385.jpg
was immediately set to finished because the poem was already
proofreaded twice
(
http://de.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Das_Bildni%C3%9F&action=hist…)ory).
But it belonged to a large story collection
(
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Neue_Thalia,_Erster_Band)
which also is just a part of seven such books. They are part
of our currently most important community project which
should be finished until November 10th. Because of the short
time left all books were switched to PR2 so that more people
can work on them and also have a better overview which
poem/story/... in which book is already finished and which
not. I finished the whole switch just a few days before the
mediawiki-update. A few days later I would not have been
able anymore to set the pages to 'finished'.
When I complained about that to ThomasV, he suggested to
use level 0 for it, since it is a finished page and no more
proofreading needs to be done. He would even rename the
'without text' to fit it better and the pages still
would land in category 'finished'.
Does this sound to you like the statistics of this level
would be useable to determine how many pages a project has
finished and how many there are that are just empty? Not to
me. So those people who for some reason need statistics
wouldn't be able to get a real result out of it anyway,
because one projects uses it for really empty pages, the
other one also for those with less than ~10 words and the
next one for pages that do not need proofread for some or
the other reason, even if they are full of text.
Cecil
(The other solution suggested by ThomasV would have been to
create a list of all pages and
which state they are and then let a bot or a second user
correct the state
of those pages that I would not be able to do. The 7
Thalia-bands have
3279 pages full of text and a few more with index,
introduction, headers and first pages, so you can imagine
how difficult it would have been to
maintain those lists without any chaos and always obtain a
format that the bot can deal with.)
2009/10/14 Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic(a)googlemail.com>
Birgitte SB that was the reason,
why my text wasn't as polite as it should be. It sounded
off-topic for me.
joergens.mi
2009/10/14 Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com>
Thank you for explaining, this
discussion would have been off-topic in the other thread.
I am not someone that finds statistics to be a big deal,
but I have learned that others feel deeply about such
issues. The statistics total all pages marked
"4" and report this as the number of pages a
subdomain has proofread and validated. So when compared to
other subdomains which mark empty pages with "0"
the numbers of de.WS are slightly inflated. The current
state of things is that other subdomains do not count empty
pages in their totals while de.WS does. I appreciate your
introducing the situation to the local community.
Birgitte SB
--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Michael Jörgens <joergens.mic(a)googlemail.com>
wrote:
From: Michael Jörgens
<joergens.mic(a)googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages without text
To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the
free
library" <wikisource-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 2:29 PM
Sorry, that was my fault, I
didn't
read
the topic right, i thougt this discussion is
still
part of
the topic [Wikisource-l]
Proofreading.
From
my personal point of view, there is no difference
between
this pages. I see no need to distinguish empty
und
full
pages. The final state means, all work needed is
done
with
this page.
In
general I like statistiks, but never mind, I
would
never
count empty pages.
On
the other hand if others like to do, no problem
in
general.
I
think we will introduce this question to our
community
and
we will make a decision. Changes can be done by
bot,
as I
understand.
sincerly
joergens.mi
2009/10/14 Birgitte SB
<birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com>
I sorry you find the concerns other people have
to be
"empty" and "silly". Perhaps
in
the
future you could ignore the threads on smaller
issues
without comment. It would really help keep
things
more
congenial.
Birgitte SB
--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Michael Jörgens
<joergens.mic(a)googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
From: Michael Jörgens
<joergens.mic(a)googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
without text
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource,
the
free
library"
<wikisource-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:15 PM
> Is there a need for
this
> ''empty discussion'' about
empty
pages
> here,
> The main point ist to find an for all
acceptable
> way of working together with Thomas. In a
way
> that Thomas is satisfied and feels
comfortable,
taking the
> problems he see's into concern and the
problems
some
> projects have.
> And it should be a compromise that all can
accept,
> without feeling overruled by others.
> With this in the background the other
discussion
> is simply silly. Some are talking about
some
pages,
which
> in total are below 1%, there are bigger
issues
to
> solve.
>
>
> sincerly joergens.mi
>
>
>
>
>
>
2009/10/14 Birgitte SB
<birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com>
>
>
I
> disagree in general with the idea that
everyone
must
> conform. There is room for the communities
to
develop
> their own solutions. Hopefully when one
community
proves
> that some solution has good results others
will
learn
from
> their experience and adopt it. But there
needs
to be
room
> for experimentation.
>
>
>
>
> In this specific case, it seems to me this
is
more of
> legacy issue on de.WS rather than a
deliberate
choice.
If
> they (as well as every other subdomains)
conform
to
the
> standards the majority of Wikisources use
then
the
> comparative numbers between Wikisources will
be
more
> accurate. I don't see a strong reason
for
de.WS
> deciding to not conform here. But it is a
bunch
of
tedious
> work and it should be thoroughly discussed.
It
would
be
> very nice if de.WS took the time to consider
the
issue
and
> let us know what the consensus turns out to
be.
>
>
>
>
> However we can always make a footnote when
people
choose to
> count things differently and estimate with
data
crunching.
> (i.e. Of 1000 validated pages on the top
three
non-de.WS
> subdomains the average number of empty pages
is
X
(A%),
> therefore an estimate of de.WS validated
non-empty
page is
> the given total minus the A% of the given
total)
This is
> not an unsolvable issue and I am sure sooner
of
later
some
> subdomain will discover a good reason to do
something
> differently.
>
>
>
>
>
Birgitte SB
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Syagrius
<syagrius(a)gmx.fr>
>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: Syagrius <syagrius(a)gmx.fr>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
without
text
>
> > To: "discussion list for
Wikisource,
the
free
>
library"
<wikisource-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009,
10:47 AM
>
> > #yiv579852079 html, #yiv579852079
>
> > {}#yiv579852079 html
>
> >
>
{width:100%;height:100%;margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv579852079
>
> > {font-size:100.01%;font-family:Verdana,
Geneva,
> Arial,
>
> > Helvetica,
>
> >
>
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;background-image:none;margin:0px;padding:5px;}#yiv579852079
>
> > p
{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv579852079
>
> > {font-size:12px;font-family:Verdana,
Geneva,
Arial,
>
> > Helvetica,
>
> >
sans-serif;background-color:#FFFFFF;}#yiv579852079 p
>
> > {margin:0;padding:0;}#yiv579852079
blockquote
>
> >
>
{padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px;}#yiv579852079
>
> > blockquote.quote {border-left:1px solid
>
> > #CCC;padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;}
If
the
> Wikisources have adopted
>
> > some common rules, every sublanguage
> should follow it. On
>
> > the other hand, I don't understand
why
you
> don't
>
> > want to transform these empty pages,
since
en.ws
> and fr.ws
>
> > already did it and a bot could do it
very
easily.
> There
>
> > would be absolutely no loss of quality
or
> credibility...
>
> >
>
> > Syagrius
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ----- Message
>
> > d'origine -----De : John
>
> > VandenbergEnvoyés : 14.10.09 02:03À :
>
> > discussion list for Wikisource,
the
free
>
> > libraryObjet : Re: [Wikisource-l] Pages
without
>
> > text On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 10:12
> AM, Cecil
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Syagrius, could you please explain
why
this
would
>
be
>
> > "irrespectuous toward
>
> > > other wikisources" when we
mark
them as
part
> of a
>
> > 'finished' project?
>
> >
>
> > It is not a part of the same work.
>
> >
>
> > Advertisements are a _different_ work,
and
it has
not
> been
>
> > transcribed.
>
> >
>
> > It should be marked as a incomplete.
>
> >
>
> > Advertisements are also sources....
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
> > :-)
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > John Vandenberg
>
> >
>
> >
_______________________________________________
>
> > Wikisource-l mailing list
>
> > Wikisource-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
> >
>
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>
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>
> >
>
> >
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>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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