Except, apparently, if someone says "fart". For godsakes, that's about the mildest of language you could ask for. I could use far stronger about this whole farce.
If the "UCoC" means that people can't say "fart" because someone might get their feewings hurted, then I've very well been right to strongly oppose it.
Todd
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:45 AM Asaf Bartov asaf.bartov@gmail.com wrote:
As you can see, Dan, your choice of imagery, appreciated and encouraged in less buttoned-up journalism, is offensive to some subscribers here. Your strong criticism of the Foundation, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable.
As a professional wordsmith, I am confident you can continue to voice this criticism while employing milder imagery, or indeed dispensing with figurative language entirely.
A.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:31 PM Dan Szymborski dszymborski@gmail.com wrote:
I am absolutely flabbergasted that a generic reference of an organization to flatulence, something we see in rated-G television isn't considered "collegial" enough yet the actions that the WMF has taken over the last
18
months, many of which were pushed by people on this list *are* considered collegial.
If a joke that would be appropriate for a four-year-old leads to special moderation, what action ought be taken for someone on the list pushing
the
failure of a collaborative process that WMF is foisting upon the
community?
One of the people "doth protesting too much" about the reference is also someone banned from English Wikipedia for a whole litany of *actual*
things
that took up countless hours of community time, including making legal threats based on finding offense in normal Wikipedia actions.
I am a longtime, accredited journalist, possibly even slightly respected
in
the field -- though there's always that risk of Dunning-Kruger -- who has written for a ton of outlets and there's not an editor in the world that I've worked with who would've asked me to change the *very* gentle
wording.
If anything, I was too mild. *I'm* grossly offended by the WMF's actions over the last 18 months. *I'm* grossly offended by the perversion of a
free
information movement being converted into a third-tier social media app. *I'm* grossly offended by board policies that empower the vested, the connected, the politically adept to judge the weak and the voiceless.
*I'm*
grossly offended by the people here who cheerfully announce the board arbitrarily changing board terms or that the community has no actual say
in
what the *community* (not the board) built. The Wiki movement is far
bigger
than the WMF; which is a good thing because I can't imagine it being smaller than the board's self-dealing petty bourgeoisie affair.
No, I didn't mean petit.
Yet I don't call for anyone to be silenced because, well, disagreeing vigorously is what adults are able to do.
It matters not if this message is censored by the list overlords. One of the few benefits of being a journalist is that combination of self-righteousness and having myriad ways to prevent an opinion from
being
suppressed on dubious grounds.
Cheers,
Dan
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 2:55 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
Hello,
A code of conduct id something many of us have asked the WMF to write
for
many years. We are asking the WMF to take an active part in stopping abusive behaviors in our community.
On fr wiki, many admins say they are tired of conflicts and that they
did
not enroll to deal with them. A code of conduct could help then take
action
because it offers a frame.
This is COMPLETELY different with the branding process.
We are one of the few projects in the open source world without a code
of
conduct.
So thank you for this draft, thank you for opening up for discussions,
and
I hope the language will remain respectful.
I believe moderators should ban from this list the person who spoke
about
« wmf flatulence ».
I dont want to read that type of language among people who are
supposedly
asked to write neutral enccyclopedias.
It puts pressure and stress on those who would like to answer on this thread, it sets an aggressive climate.
Please could we all feel empowered to apply our founding principles
and
refuse any such language here and on meta in these discussions?
Kind regards,
Nattes à chat
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 10 sept. 2020 à 03:53, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com a écrit :
Yair
I was in the room in 2017 when the first community consultation on
the
strategy program took place. Affiliates were asked to send a person specifically for the strategy process, and WMF also invited some
other
community members. There was absolutely no coercion, or control over
what
topics were raised during those discussions. The program was not run
by
the
WMF and everyone was free to contribute any ideas they had, as the
program
went on we chose which areas and topics we wanted to be the focus.
Trust
and safety, and user conduct were areas that were identified as
necessary
to the future development of the movement. This process has been open
for
ideas, comments, and suggestions. Yes the WMF has funded the process
but
every choice has been made by community members without any duress or reward as to where each step lead.
As someone who actively runs projects for the last 10 years to bring
in
new
contributors, I have concerns about the UCoC process in giving
advantages
to those who have been around longer but that is not something that
will
be
unique to this as its already an issue in all projects where the new
person
is the one frequently dismissed as wrong when there is a clash
between
them and someone who has been around long enough to be known.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 09:11, Yair Rand yyairrand@gmail.com
wrote:
The UCoC is obviously a WMF-driven project. It was announced in June
2019
by a member of the WMF Trust and Safety team, was added to the
strategy
process by the group of WMF appointees (or sometimes WMF appointee-appointees) who made up the working group, had pseudo-consultations about it started by WMF staff (with
wildly-misleading
reports written up afterward, again by the WMF), and the UCoC itself
was
drafted by a mixed group of WMF staff and WMF appointees, through a
process
set by the WMF.
The communities have repeatedly expressed unambiguous consensus
against
having a WMF-imposed UCoC. The WMF has absolutely no business in
setting
ordinary conduct policy, and they could have the ED and every board
member
and C-level declare the UCoC to be policy, and threaten every
affiliate
into declaring it as policy, and the only impact would be
demonstrating
how
far removed they are from Wikimedia. The communities are
self-governing
and
will implement policy based on community decisions.
That said, I disagree with Dan's calls for
nonparticipation/noncooperation
or for specifically withholding funds or support. If we end up in a situation where the WMF tries to block, desysop, threaten, or sue contributors, or to seize control over the projects, that would be
the
time
for all editors and affiliates and donors to level-headedly level
the
Foundation to its foundations. Until then, we should attempt to work
with
them, even when their behaviour leaves much to be desired.
-- Yair Rand
בתאריך יום ד׳, 9 בספט׳ 2020 ב-16:03 מאת Jackie < jackie.koerner@gmail.com>:
Hi Dan,
I hear that you are upset by the suggestion and likely
implementation
of
a
Universal Code of Conduct. I also hear that you feel like this is a WMF-driven project. I cannot change your opinion about the UCoC,
but
I
can
say your feelings about this being a WMF-driven project are untrue.
It
doesn't matter how strongly you feel this, it's actually many
groups
of
people working together. It was determined as a major need during discussions I had as part of the Community Health Working Group
and I
am
glad to see this moving forward.
I am glad you feel comfortable expressing yourself and your
feelings
about
the UCoC. I also would like to say the way in which people express themselves and mask insults as "lively discussion" is a huge reason
why
we
need a UCoC. To that point, I agree with Isaac and would suggest
you
share
in a (collegiate) conversation on the Meta talk page. I just cannot
take
you seriously with the language you used in your email. I, however,
would
love to take your comments seriously and have you engage in a
good-faith
discussion about the UCoC.
Our roles in the discussion should consider not only our needs as individuals but the needs of the broader communities. To dismiss
the
UCoC
is failing to recognize privilege and power structures and their
effect
on
people in and outside of the Wikimedia community.
Best,
Jackie
On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:42 PM Isaac Olatunde <
reachout2isaac@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello Dan, > > You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's
better
and > more useful on the Draft talk page. > > That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the proceedings", > you probably expected a different model where different language > Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather to
have
a
> UCoC. > > The current model isn't bad. I do think we should review the
draft
and
if > there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either suggest > improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to
help
and
> support the drafting committee at this stage. > > Regards > > Isaac > > On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski, dszymborski@gmail.com
wrote:
> >> I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really
like
to
> get a >> $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an opinion > on >> proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the
proceedings
> is >> about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its > flatulence >> to itself. >> >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde < reachout2isaac@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the
Board
or
> WMF >>> as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest
improvement.
>>> >>> I have been following the process closely and I do not see
anything
> that >>> looks like an "imposition" >>> >>> The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the
existing
> policy >> or >>> guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any >> Wikimedia >>> project. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Isaac >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski, <
dszymborski@gmail.com>
> wrote: >>> >>>> As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above
without
>>>> community approval, participating in any way is ethically
unsound.
>> Doubly >>>> so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has arbitrarily >>>> denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of
the
>>>> community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF
has
> taken >>> over >>>> the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative > process >>> when >>>> it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's
called
one. >>>> >>>> The best use of time at this point is to organize the
communities
to >> use >>>> every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley < pearley@wikimedia.org >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, everyone. >>>>> >>>>> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of
Conduct
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct, which >> the >>>>> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year >>>>> < >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2...
>>>>>> , >>>>> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open
until
>> October >>>> 6, >>>>> 2020. >>>>> >>>>> The UCoC Drafting Committee >>>>> < >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
>>>>>> wants >>>>> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you > or >>>> your >>>>> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and
what
>> could >>>> be >>>>> improved? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with >>>> translations >>>>> so far. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please join the conversation >>>>> < >>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
>> >>>>> and share this email with others who may be interested to
join,
> too. >>>>> >>>>> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code
of
>> Conduct >>>>> page >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct,
and
> the >>> FAQ >>>>> <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
, > on >>>> Meta. >>>>> >>>>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct >>>>> >>>>> [2] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2...
>>>>> >>>>> [3] >>>> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
>>>>> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Patrick Earley >>>>> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety >>>>> Wikimedia Foundation >>>>> pearley@wikimedia.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
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>
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