Hoi Dan, Foundation-l the mailing list about what transcends individual projects of the Wikimedia Foundation. To start with you are apparently at the wrong address. There is a specific list for the English language Wikipedia, there is a list for what brings the Wikipedias together..
Foundation-l is not a refuge for what ails other lists. Now I am not suggesting that you should be moderated, but I do insist that foundation-l is not to be associated with encyclopaedias. That is not what this list is about. By the way there is no need to moderate wiktionary-l .. :)
When you equate "legitimate criticism" with Wikipedia, arbitration cabals, all people who "criticise" on this list need to appreciate that they are wrong. Wrong, because this is not what this list is there for.
Thanks, GerardM
On Dec 21, 2007 6:32 PM, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Foundation-l, the mailing list nobody can edit for the encyclopedia everyone can?
If we're going to get on the topic of censoring mailing lists, we should deal with Wiki-en-l first, THEN foundation-l. Most of what I see on foundation-l is constructive criticism, and inspired debate with a few snide remarks, not straight trolling attempts. Moderating this list would serve the effect of censoring legitimate criticism by allowing it to be subjected to a "judgment call" by the list moderators before being approved. You want to see a REAL cesspool, spend some time at Wiki-en-l; after that this list smells like roses.
-Dan On Dec 21, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Andrew Whitworth wrote:
I have to say that I agree with Birgitte here. For me, Foundation- l has becoming incresasingly useless as a mailing list because it is so frequently dominated by people who seem to be very "bitter and mean-spirited" to the point that they are on the attack no matter what happens.
So ignore them, block them, ban them, etc. If there are people whose mean-spiritedness is preventing us from conducting legitimate business here, or is preventing this list from being a useful resource, those people should be removed from it. It is not anybody's duty or responsibility to "put up" with people who are unhelpful, unproductive, and even counter-productive. This list has a purpose and "empowering trolls" or "dealing with trolls" is not that purpose.
I am unsure what we should do about foundation-l. It has become a sewer. It is difficult to balance our very strong desire for an unmoderated forum where people can feel comfortable making strong criticisms (nothing wrong with that!) with a forum where trolls are exhausting a lot of good people and spreading misinformation due to the inability of others to keep up with the sheer volume of malice.
I don't see why this list has to be "unmoderated". None of the wikis are unmoderated, and some of them are very strictly moderated. Set rules: legitimate users will follow them, trolls will not. This is not to say that the rules need to be complicated, or strict, etc. The rules may not even need to be explicit, set some moderators who have good judgement and tell them that they will "know it when they see it". Hell, it works for pornography in the US, it will work for trolls on the mailinglist.
I would also submit a small disagreement that this list has become a "sewer", but it's effectiveness has certainly been limited unnecessarily.
--Andrew Whitworth
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