That is an excellent point, Jennifer! This problem makes collaboration on Commons even more difficult or unlikely. The photographer sometimes has an unique access to the part of the world he described with a picture. Often on Commons we simply ask the photographer: 'where did you take the picture', or 'what is the context' etc., because we cannot see that from the picture itself or we cannot look it up by ourselves. I think with wiki journalism it is quite similar. Kind regards Ziko
Am Sa., 27. Apr. 2019 um 13:15 Uhr schrieb Jennifer Pryor-Summers jennifer.pryorsummers@gmail.com:
Yaroslav
I think you have identified an important point -- I hestitate to call it a problem -- about Commons. We are dependent on the authority of the uploader of an image, say, to say what it is an image of. If they say it is a certain locality, or object, we have to take their word for it (or not, of course). That doesn't fit too well with the requirement on other projects for citation of reliable independent sources.
Jennifer
On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:34 AM Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Ziko,
you could then argue that Commons is also not a collaborative project - only one person takes a picture (determines the story, the position, light etc), and others can at best perform some editing or add/remove categories.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:29 AM Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Philippe,
Thank you for your points to which I generally can agree. Because this is an important matter to my, allow me to explain what I exactly mean.
Of course, there are several tasks or layers where people can (and do) collaborate when working on journalistic content. But there is an aspect where the collaboration cannot be a collaboration of equals (which is necessary for the definition of what a wiki is).
Imagine that reporter-editor P. has witnessed a speech of the mayor and reports about it, calling it e.g. "enthusiast". Stay-at-home-editor Z. reads this report and changes the word to "euphoric". P. then protests and changes it back, claiming that he has been there and knows better. So P. and Z. didn't have the same access to the world that has to be described.
That would be different in the case that P. and Z. only work on material such as press releases and content from news agencies. I believe that Andrew meant this kind of work when he wrote that we don't need (another) website offering this.
Another example for content unsuitable for wiki-collaboration-among-equals is an autobiography. An autobiography by definition is a personal account of what someone has experienced in her life. No other person has the same world access. Other people in a wiki can check the text for inconsistencies, orthography, structure etc. (Great.) But the person of the autobiography has always a veto right - otherwise, it wouldn't be an autobiography.
An interesting question is whether fiction is suitable for collaboration (and what kind of collaboration), but that would go to far here.
Kind regards Ziko
Am Fr., 26. Apr. 2019 um 18:26 Uhr schrieb Philippe Beaudette philippe@beaudette.me:
Respectfully Disagree. They can formulate questions, coordinate and
fact
check answers... and that’s off the top of my head.
That said I think wikinews is fundamentally not one is our success
stories,
but I don’t agree with what my friend Ziko said there. There are many
roles
for community there.
On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:15 AM Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@gmail.com
wrote:
Hello,
One of the central problems of Wikinews is that the content is not suitable for collaboration.
Content suitable for collaboration is related to a reality to which the collaborators equally have access. Think if an encyclopedia based on scholarly literature that (potentially) everybody can find in a library.
When a journalist has spoken to her 'sources' (relevant people), she is the one who had a special access to theses sources. The editors in the wiki did not have this access. They can correct typos but do little more.
Kind regards Ziko
Am Fr., 26. Apr. 2019 um 00:43 Uhr schrieb Philippe Beaudette philippe@beaudette.me:
The very smart Mr. Lih sayeth:
I have been a fan of the times Wikinews did original interviews
with
notable folks [1] so this is perhaps a sustainable niche. But as a
direct
news wire competitor to AP, Reuters or AFP, no.
[1]
https://en.m.wikinews.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres_discusses_the_future_of_Israel
Me too. In fact, I think this is something that Wikinews has
always
done
very well. It also strikes me as an excellent, and quite
functional, use
for a Wiki. A wikivoices or wiki-interviews type project would be
a
fine
addition to the ecosystem, imho. And it is very reasonable to
think
that
given its success in this area, Wikinews could very easily pivot to
fill
that spot.
But a news competitor to traditional news outlets? Nope, that it
isn't.
Philippe
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:05 PM Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com
wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > jennifer.pryorsummers@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Andrew > > > > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the
policies
> that > > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V,
NORUSH)
are a
> > poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand,
Wikipedia
> is > > a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem
inconsistent to
me.
> > > As Wikimedians we are secondary source news summarizers rather
than
primary
> source news gatherers. That’s where the difference lies
primarily.
> > I have been a fan of the times Wikinews did original interviews
with
> notable folks [1] so this is perhaps a sustainable niche. But as
a
direct
> news wire competitor to AP, Reuters or AFP, no. > > [1] >
https://en.m.wikinews.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres_discusses_the_future_of_Israel
> > > > However, I conclude from what you're saying that the best way
forward is
> to > > fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia. Is that right? > > > Fold Wikinews altogether so it doesn’t confuse the public.
Wikipedia
> editors are already doing a stellar job. > > Andrew > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <
andrew.lih@gmail.com
wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > > > jennifer.pryorsummers@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language)
Wikipedia
> > > seems > > > > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely
consistent
with
> its > > > > encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason. Maybe
the
WMF
> should > > > > sort out the demarcation issues. > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer, > > > > > > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade
and
the
vast
> > > majority of the community has converged on the conclusion
that
Wikinews
> > > hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental > properties. > > > > > > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of
the
truth
> > given > > > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing
direct
> > > observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following
policies
that
> > make > > > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline
reporting:
> > > > > > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research > > > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources > > > Wikipedia:V - verifiability > > > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism > > > > > > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience
this
mismatch
> > and > > > realize it is a poor fit. > > > > > > However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we
should
> > celebrate > > > the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that
evolve
minute
> to > > > minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the
world
as
we
> know > > > it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of
reality
–
> the > > > Wikipedia article. > > > > > > If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the
origins of
> > > Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look: > > > [1] > > > > > >
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html
> > > [2] > > > > > >
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html
> > > > > > -Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > -- > -Andrew Lih > Author of The Wikipedia Revolution > US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016) > Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015) > Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM > Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American > University, Columbia University, USC > --- > Email: andrew@andrewlih.com > WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado > PROJECT: Wikipedia Space:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE
> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
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