Hello,
2010/6/3 Mike Godwin mnemonic@gmail.com:
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Yann suggests that he (and the Wikisource community) did not know about the takedown in a timely manner; anyone not watching the files or the deletion logs might have missed it if the only note was in the deletion log.
But of course, the deletion log was not the only notice. And Yann Forget knew about the deletions at the time they occurred.
If you can't communicate certain facts during negotiations, why not do so afterwards?
Sometimes you can. I just did. But of course sometimes you can't, for reasons I've already outlined. (There's nothing magical about the passage of time that eliminates the disincentive effect of disclosing negotiations.)
There is some tension built into this general issue, though; Cary advises that the fr.wikisource project needs to make its own decisions about what content to allow, based on a local interpretation of applicable law -- and then the Foundation deletes content without (a) providing advice on what is acceptable and what isn't and (b) without referring to the local decisions the project was advised to take.
I'm not sure what advice you think it is even theoretically possible that the Foundation could have offered. Are you suggesting that the Foundation is acting as the lawyer for everyone who posts content to Wikisource? There are obvious reasons that is not a sustainable or feasible model.
You seem to have the impression that the Foundation staff directly deleted the content. Actually, I shared the list with Cary, who shared the list with community members who implemented the takedown. (I deleted no content myself.) So you can see why the whole notion that the takedown wasn't shared with the community seems flatly wrong to me. We absolutely engaged community members in implementing the takedown.
That's not exactly true. The deletions were done by a steward which is not a contributor to French Wikisource.
Yann seems to suggest that our actions have been some kind of big secret. The reality, however, is that we did nothing in secret, and that Yann in fact has known what we did for quite a while now. We even made it trivially easy to contact Gallimard and complain about the takedown. But I do understand that it is easier to complain about WMF than it is to pursue Gallimard directly, even though doing the latter might be a more effective choice.
I'll note also that the real complaint, as I perceive it, isn't really that we didn't communicate what we were doing. The real complaint is that we actually complied with a formally correct takedown notice, consistent with longstanding policy.
I don't know where you got that, but I have never said such a thing. Yes, what I am complaining about is merely communication.
The only notice was the following, which I find a bit short and dry.
"The Wikimedia Foundation received a request from Editions Gallimard to takedown content from the French Wikisource. This request is based on Editions Gallimard's claim that Wikisource content in the French language targets the French public, and therefore, under French conflict of laws principles, the copyright law of France applies to this content."
A short phrase mentioning that might be a temporary deletion done according to the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act might be enough for us to find what is going on. If you cannot, or do not want explain yourself this process, you could have ask someone else to do it. I can't accept your assertion that every contributor has to be an expert on US copyright law.
There are two other assertions which are false: 1. That I didn't inform the Wikisource community about Gallimard demand. I have always informed the community about the information I got, either from Gallimard, or from you. 2. That I try to avoid litigation. In fact I make a point not to hide behind a pseudonym, and I would send them my address to Gallimard if they ask for it. And they probably target me only because I am the only contributor which they were able to find the real identity.
Now I have a few questions which you should be able to answer: 1. Did Gallimard send a lawsuit? If yes, the Wikisource community, and probably many other contributors might be interested to know about it. If not, how long do we have to wait before restoring the deleted works?
2. Is there on-going negotiations with Gallimard?
3. I am not sure I understand the process you mention in another mail about reposting the content, compliant with applicable notice-and-takedown law. Someone else might also be able to explain that.
--Mike
Regards,
Yann