On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 00:34, M. Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
No, Milos, my "reasoning" is not "of the industrial age". It is backed up by first-hand experience and by research. People who live in cities are by nature a part of a larger urban community, with few exceptions (if there is some kind of enforced segregation, like ghettoization of Jews which often preserved Yiddish in urban environments pre-holocaust), which means it is very, very, very highly likely that their children will learn the LWC of the city in addition to the language of their parents. There is also a much higher chance that children who grow up in the city will marry someone outside of their own linguistic group, which often means their children will be raised primarily in the main language of that city. Now, like I said in my original e-mail, a 100% bilingual minority group does not usually stay bilingual for more than a couple of generations, especially in an urban environment where they must interact on a daily basis with people who do not speak their language, and often, might only use their own language at home.
Also, keep in mind that the idea of "generations" varies from country to country. In some countries, people typically don't give birth until mid-late 30s; in others, it is in the teenage years, so things like language death happen a bit more rapidly as the new generations come more quickly.
You are talking about cities like New York and London are; or about communities which have strong social reasons to forget their native language. Besides that, you are not counting the fact that people who speak the same language are able now to reach each other more easily.
In the most of the cases migrants are forming neighborhoods and they keep their language because they are semi/self-ghettoized. Such languages have chance to survive if there is written culture. And if the language hasn't disappeared during the time when descendants stop to struggle for survival, some of the descendants are starting to learn the language again.
Your scenario is well known everywhere on the planet. However, many things are changing thanks to the Internet and much better possibilities for communication.
Here are two opposite examples from Serbia:
* My grandfather came from the Torlak area to Belgrade with my father who was ~10 years old. Prestige language of Torlak speaking population from Serbia is Serbian and Torlak doesn't have written culture. My father knows Torlak. My mother is from other part of Serbia and I didn't use to go to the village near Pirot often. I understand Torlak well, but I don't speak it. However, my brother and my sister speak Torlak. But, it is true that their children would know just a couple of Torlak words.
* Roma languages from Serbia are in constant state of shrinking. Their prestige language is Serbian, but not just that: their prestige ethnicity is Serbian. I know a number or the third generation of integrated Roma who don't know a word of any Roma language. But, some of those from the third generation are now leaning Romano-Serbian, as a couple of years ago it's finally got written form. It is possible that we'll have Wikipedia in Romano-Serbian in a couple of years.
Note that the state of their language was probably among the worst for a language of that amount of speakers (170k): Very negative attitude toward language *and* ethnicity, no written culture, high rate of marriages with the dominant population; the only social environment in which it is used regularly are slums and all of them want to leave slums and integrate into the majority population. However, it is highly likely that all of Roma languages will survive, thanks to the increased awareness for their situation and Internet and mobile phones.
They don't need anymore to be in slums to be able to communicate in their language. A lot of them won't use Romano-Serbian in written form, but better communication will allow them to raise children who would know their language and who would be willing to educate their children in the language of their grandparents. Just a couple of decades ago such scenario wouldn't be possible.