I do feel Jane summed it up well: Because of our rules on RS, Wikipedia can only reflect society. As long as society continues to overlook women, it will be evident in Wikipedia. In my work with WomRed, enough references were the prevailing issue. We have a list of women who need articles, but without references we cannot prove notability enough to stave off AFD. Lex1
On May 10, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people wanting to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone without any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to fail. Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not to remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing knowledge. I think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready to do that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia when we opened editing to anybody.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite of notability and verifiability requirements, Without the verifiability requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are things that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer evidence, and where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is intangible, the authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means track record and proof of identity. This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see it as possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a reliable source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying the credibility we have. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
notability and verifiability are important, every culture and language has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture manage successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western styles were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is how do we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect them, how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do is not the only.
There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our current systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the citations from books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and value alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the question is do we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the sum of all knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current knowledge networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts.
Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the wikipedia but rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative knowledge streams
On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart etestart@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where a member of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though: https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10. 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4
There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a
movement
or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I
personally
do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal
impressions.
Cheers!
El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> escribió:
Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to produce reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints opens the doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain open
to
anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust alternatives.
Other
projects may work around this problem, but would then probably not be
open
for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
"Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."
But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as
Wikipedia
that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that saying
that
it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable
enough,
when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of knowledge.
JP User:Amqui
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never be
able
to correct it."
Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, Wikipedia
will
reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other bias
issues
are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full
correction
of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
Fred
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