If a tech task is relatively cheap and will expand the spread of free knowledge then no one would object to you spending a little bit of donor mony, I'm sure. But don't you see a point where it becomes sensible to expect the for-profit/s who are expanding their profits thanks to such work to pay for such work? Especially when we have a limited budget, and volunteers' requests for you to help them make and present knowledge are routinely turned down?
On Monday, 29 February 2016, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
If statements are hard to answer in real life. I don't think this issue is as black-and-white as you paint it to be.
The question is about impact for your bucks. If it requires a relatively small investment from WMF for Wikimedia content to be spread among more people, to reach a wider audience, and if that cost somehow prohibits those commercial players to do it in an open way or with other hurdles that hinder further distribution - why not!
Why donors give money, is pure speculation. We only know one thing: we can only spend it on our mission. So lets do that.
Lets not exclude whole ranges of issues based on some vague qualification that may or may not have foundation in reality. If there is a specific example that is terrible and you'd like to bring up, then do so.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 9:29 PM, Anthony Cole <ahcoleecu@gmail.com javascript:;> wrote:
Brion, are you aware of any WMF tech work aimed specifically at helping large for-profits engage with our projects? Andreas mentioned a side-project for Amazon.
Regardless of specific instances, in principle, would that be a
reasonable
place to invest general donation revenue, or should we get the
for-profits
to fund such work if it arises?
On Monday, 29 February 2016, Brion Vibber <bvibber@wikimedia.org
javascript:;> wrote:
On Sunday, February 28, 2016, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.com
javascript:;> wrote:
Jimmy,
I think the first step is for the Foundation to be more open and transparent about what work it is actually doing for commercial
re-users,
and to announce such work proactively to both donors and the
community.
There should be a dedicated space where such information is collected
and
available to the public. Major developments should be announced on
the
Wikimedia blog.
If some engineering team does work *specifically* for Amazon Kindle,
Amazon
Echo, Google Play, Siri etc., then in my view the companies concerned should pay for that work, or the work should be left to a for-profit contractor. It should not be paid for by donors.
What non-hypothetical work are you referring to?
{{cn}}
-- brion
Donors do not give money to the Foundation so it can flood the
knowledge
market with a free product that a handful of companies then earn
billions
from.
As for API use, if there are *generic* APIs that multiple commercial re-users can benefit from, then they should be charged according to
their
usage, with small users operating below a certain threshold being
exempt
from payment.
Lastly, we should not seek world domination. :) It's unhealthy,
especially
in the world of information and knowledge. Prices should be high
enough
that some competition is possible.
Andreas
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Jimmy Wales <jimmywales@ymail.com
javascript:;> wrote:
On the very specific topic of donor funding going to help
commercial
re-users, we've had some interesting but inconclusive board
discussions
about this topic. Despite that he takes every opportunity to
attack
me,
and surely it will disappoint him to know, but my general view is
100%
in agreement with him on the core issue - where commercial re-users
are
getting enormous value from our work, they should be paying for the engineering resources required for their support.
Here are two push-backs on the idea that I do think are deserving
of
serious consideration:
- Part of our core mission as a community is free access - will a
"pay
for service" model for APIs for commercial re-users alienate a significant portion of the community? Does requiring some to pay
while
others get it free raise questions similar to those around "net neutrality"?
As a historical footnote, there was a deal many years ago with Answers.com to give them access to an API which they used to
present
our
content alongside many other resources. They paid for that - not a
huge
amount, but it was meaningful back in those days. I don't recall
this
being particularly controversial.
- In many cases it may be too simplistic to simply say "a company
is
benefiting, so they should pay". The point is that *we* also
benefit,
from increased readership for example, from our work making it to
end
users as technology changes and as the way people get information changes. There is certainly a situation where setting too high a
price
would simply push commercial re-users to not use our content at
all,
so
sensible pricing would be key. And with real serious ongoing
analysis,
the right price could still be "free" even if we in principle
charge.
For me, despite those being real concerns, I come down firmly on
the
side of being careful about falling into a trap of doing lots of expensive work for commercial re-users without having them pay. I
don't
actually think we do a lot of that right now. What I'd like to see
is
more of it, and I'm pretty agnostic about whether that's in the
form
of
"self-financing cottage industries" or a "separate for-profit arm"
or
within the current engineering organization. I can see arguments
for
any of those.
On 2/28/16 8:02 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak <
darekj@alk.edu.pl javascript:; javascript:;
wrote:
We COULD outsource most of our tech (I'm not supporting this, I'm
just
> giving perspective). >
One thing I've been wondering about of late is how much
donor-funded
the
work the WMF is doing that is primarily designed to support
commercial
re-users.
The other day, I read an Engineering report on the Wikimedia blog
that
spoke of the Wikipedia Zero team doing "side project" work for
Amazon
Kindle and Google Play.
I was thinking, Why are donors paying for that? – especially at a
time
when
the Foundation worries about being able to sustain fundraising
growth.
Wikimedia content is worth billions. Wikidata in particular has
huge
potential value for commercial re-users.[1] So have the link-ups
between
Wikipedia and Amazon, Google, Bing etc.
It's clear that even in 2008, the Foundation was inundated with
"multiple
product-specific pitches" from Google.[2] I imagine the breadth
and
number
of these pitches from Silicon Valley companies can only have
increased
since then.
Sure, Wikimedia is committed to using its donated funds to make
content
freely available under an open licence, but does that mean donors
should
also be paying for programming work that is primarily designed to
support
commercial re-users?
That work could be done by self-financing cottage industries
built
up
by
Wikimedians, working for profit, or even a for-profit arm of the Foundation. All the Foundation would have to do would be to
provide
basic
documentation; the rest could be left to the open market.
The astonishing thing to me is that there seems to be very little
or
no
publicity and transparency from the WMF about developments in
this
area.
For instance, I was unable to find any WMF communication about
Wikipedia
Smart Lookup being integrated in the Amazon Kindle (something
Amazon
announced in 2014),[3] even though WMF teams clearly have done
programming
work on this. You'd have thought having Wikipedia search embedded
in
a
major product like the Kindle is a big thing, worthy of a
community-facing
announcement?
In short, I think the WMF should collate and publicise more
information
about commercial re-use applications, and be transparent about
the
work
it's doing to support such re-use. Maybe there is another
"transparency
gap" here.[4]
And if there is any work that the Foundation is currently doing
that
primarily benefits commercial re-users, then I think it should
stop
doing
that for free (= at donors' expense), and allow for-profit
contractors
to
spring up and pitch for that work. That would allow the
non-profit
foundation to focus on user-facing improvements.
Andreas
[1]
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/25/wikidata_turns_the_world_into_a_data...
[2] See Sue Gardner's email quoted on the last two pages of http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/sandberg.pdf [3]
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=cs_hc_k_m_oldest...
[4]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_transparency_gap#T...
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