On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Now, the second problem has been discussed over and over. Gerard said at the beginning of this thread: "Many people maintain their positions and do not for whatever reason consider the arguments of others." I can't help but wonder who he is referring to here? Is he referring to himself? Or does he consider that unless people all agree with him, they have not "considered" his argument?
You've hit the nail on the head right there with your last statement, and it describes quite a few people on this list, I'm afraid. Gerard, your passion for wanting to do this correctly is admirable, I cannot deny that. However, at times you--and many others, on both sides of the debate--work yourselves into a posisition where you only seem to see "your" solution as "the" solution. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can cause discussions to be frustrating at times. And to everyone, please remember that it's OK to be wrong! It's not a battle to be won, lives aren't lost because people disagree with you. I think if we all remember this a little more often and are willing to say "You're right, we should do it your way instead of mine," we can be a little more productive. And nicer.
I considered his argument, and I disagree and think it is invalid. I asked even for evidence of these made-up words... why not give me 10 or 20 words as proof? But I have yet to see them. I was ignored once I asked for the proof. If he decides he is up to my challenge, let me add a qualifier or two:
Likewise. I would like to see the same information before I can accept that this is a realistic concern.
Always,
Chad
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
There are two stumbling blocks for grc.wp in particular:
- The requirement of native speakers.
- Gerard's unilateral and so far apparently unsupported and unpopular
view that people will make new words up out of thin air and that this will make the language they are writing from an historical language into a conlang.
Now, the second problem has been discussed over and over. Gerard said at the beginning of this thread: "Many people maintain their positions
and do not for whatever reason consider the arguments of others." I can't help but wonder who he is referring to here? Is he referring to himself? Or does he consider that unless people all agree with him, they have not "considered" his argument?
I considered his argument, and I disagree and think it is invalid. I asked even for evidence of these made-up words... why not give me 10 or 20 words as proof? But I have yet to see them. I was ignored once I asked for the proof. If he decides he is up to my challenge, let me add a qualifier or two:
- Proper names do not count. Although they may not be in the original
corpus, this is irrelevant as any language, historical or modern, can rapidly assimilate proper names from other languages. Thus, "Britney Spears" is not a neologism, but a made-up word to mean "computer" is. Most proper nouns are the same in all languages with exceptions only for certain toponyms (even in the case of toponyms, many are universals or close to it). 2) A word, present in the historical corpus, that means "calculating machine" used to mean "computer" in modern texts is not a neologism. Neither is a descriptive phrase of the type used in Navajo (which is a living language).
With those two restrictions in mind, I challenge anyone to find a neologism in use in the grc test wiki, or the Gothic Wikipedia. I am not saying they do not exist, but I think it is ridiculous that we are arguing about something that is said to exist without even having proof that it does.
Mark
On 17/04/2008, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@googlemail.com wrote:
Dear GerardM, Thank you for your explanations; it is sometimes difficult to me following the discussions, a full history of the subject would be useful to me. So, if I understand correctly, if nowadays someone would propose WPs in Esperanto or Latin or Anglo-Saxon, they would be rejected, because they are "constructed" (interlinguistics say: planned) languages or reconstructed. And they do not have native speakers, or just a small percentage of them. When judging the vitality of a language, one can make a list of criteria as done by Detlev Blanke: Internationale Plansprachen, Bln. 1985 (I don't remember by heart the exact list):
- publications
- conventions
- codification by dictionaries, grammars
- sociological or political diversification of the language community
- family language
According to that, Blanke divides into:
- Planned languages: a full language, in fact only Esperanto
- Semi-Planned languages (Semiplansprachen): only some achievements, today
only Interlingua and Ido, in history also Volapük and Occidental-Interlingue
- Projects of planned languages: a very faint existence if at all: all the
others (more than 1000 projects), including Novial, Lojban
Following Heinz Kloss (Die Entwicklung neuerer germanischer Kultursprachen, 1978), a small language does not cover all fields of a big language. It will make it possible to speak on a level of low education about 1) matters close to the language community (language and culture, history of the region, maybe a craft common in the region), 2) cultural subjects of a larger range, like general politics, philosophy, 3) subjects of science and technology. On a level of higher education the small language works only on the subjects
- and 2).
On a scientific level the small language works only on subject 1).
From this one could draw conclusions whether to accept a language edition of Wikipedia, like: a planned language should be a Semiplansprache at least; an ethnic language should cover the subjects as described by Kloss. One criterion useful especially with regard to Wikipedia might be: Is there a vocabulary about computer and internet matters? Would it be a major difficulty to the language community to translate the MediaWiki? This criterion would cause no problem to Latin and certainly not Esperanto, but would ban very recent projects of planned languages and regional idioms who merely are dialects or local varieties of the standard language.
Ziko
- The language must have an ISO-639-3 code
- We need full WMF localisation from the start
- The language must be sufficiently expressive for writing a modern
encyclopaedia
- The Incubator project must have sufficiently large articles that
demonstrate both the language and its ability to write about a wide range of topics
- A sufficiently large group of editors must be part of the Incubator
project
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- Ziko van Dijk Roomberg 30 NL-7064 BN Silvolde
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