Note: I stayed overnight so do not expect anything meaningful from me right now.
On 10/23/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
snip
on 10/22/07 1:50 PM, Birgitte SB at birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
This is an en.WP issue (again). Articles on
web-comics
have been deleted as not notable on en.WP. [1] It might be useful to share with Howard what the
actual
mission of Wiki*media* is and how it works, just
for
the sake of clarity. But I can't imagine anyone
would
really support WMF writing and enforcing new
deletion
guidelines for en.WP or anything else that would
truly
appease him.
Brigitte,
This is the key to his message:
"If the foundation really cared about what these editors write, and how they treat other people, it would take steps to curb their behavior."
The web-comics issue must, of course, be presented to. But, to focus only on the web-comics issue is like extinguishing a single tree in the middle of a forest fire.
The issue with Wikipedia is the deteriorating culture, and the equally deteriorating language of that culture! And anyone who stands by and allows it to happen - and to continue - is equally culpable. Cultural change happens only when the people who are a part of that culture change. And a culture is a reflection of everyone who is a part of it.
Marc Riddell
This is why I suggested clarifying how the whole system works to him. How each wiki is self-governing and the core principles that WMF insists all the wiki follow.
I agree we could have a common set of social norms as well as legal (e.g. "More free licence" tendency) and editorial norms (e.g. NPOV), while I am not sure the WMF should be the subject which be responsible for that in such a manner. Distinction of its operational role from the community autonomy has been one of points we've tried to stick or ...?
I doubt it will change his mind about helping but it would be good to clarify that the culture of en.WP is not the culture of Wikimedia. The truth very well might be that ja.WP is more accepting of articles on webcomics and de.WP even less than en.WP.
<joke> Hmm, as for Japanese Wikipedia, while I don't feel myself as its part, webcomic is not a part of Japanese pop culture, and I don't expect it has such a generous attitude toward it. Other language websites are simply unknown due to language barriers. ja.WP seems to be have a relatively harsh attitude toward WWW phenomena: IIRC goatse.cx failed to have an article - it was deleted as "not notable".
On the other hand, same ja.WP had once a strange RfD: Amenohotep VI aka Iknaton - since an editor thought him non-notable "he has only four line description in my certain lexicon. An Egyptian King, which has no relation to our modern life, shouldn't deserve an article". Well, notability is so a subjective concept ... </joke>
Well, I think I took your point: cultural norms depends community which is defined (or ehm I would like to say here "bestimmt" ... but failed to recall what it should be in English ...) by several other cultural hence particular elements: language, population, its own history ... and of course, content in out cases. Sometimes legal issues. Well "every project community difers slightly from the others". It's true - I say it as an editor who has 1,000+ edits on around 10 projects. Our every project has both its own particularity and share some norms. But without experience on a particular project, you cannot say which is shared there with the others. It is always heuristically known to you.
The culture of Wikimedia is the culture of letting these communities grow and each try their own methods. And to allow everyone to communicate and learn from each others methods. There is not cultural change needed in this.
En.WP does have a problematic culture, but there is little in this issue that conflicts with core principles of Wikimedia. I don't see what WMF can do to help en.WP grow up. What do you see WMF doing about this issue?
Or we sadly say, most of major projects have problematic aspects. And the histor, both the actual one and philosophical one tells us teaching the society how to behave and how not to would be always a bad idea - there is something you cannot be taught, only find from your own experience.
Birgitte SB
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