Hoi Nick, On Meta you dazzled with this same list only to get it refuted for its relevance. On Meta you went as far as stating that Sassarese is not a language only to be debunked. Thanks, GerardM
On 9/11/07, Nicolò Zamperini nick1915@gmail.com wrote:
The Sardinian idiom is indeed recognized as a language; please see any of the references below.
* ML Wagner, Sardinian Language, Bern, Francke, 1951 * A. Sanna, Introduzione agli studi di linguistica sarda, Cagliari,
Regione Autonoma Sardegna, 1957 * M. Cortellazzo, Profilo dei dialetti italiani, Pisa, Pacini-CNR, 1982 (n.20 "Sardegna") * E. Blasco Ferrer, Storia linguistica della Sardegna (Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie ; vol. 202), Tübingen, Niemeyer, 1984 * E. Blasco Ferrer, Il sardo (in Lexikon der Romanistischen Linguistik, cit. II/2 pp. 239-271) * E. Blasco Ferrer, Handbuch der italienischen Sprachwissenschaft, Berlin : E. Schmidt, 1994 * Lenguas minoritarias en la romania. El sardo. Estado de la cuestión, special rewiev of "Revista de filología románica", 17 (2000) * I. Nichita, Complexul insulei. Fizionomia lexicului sard, Bucureşti, Lumina Lex, 1998
Sassarese and gallurese are ''variants'' of '''corso''' ([
http://www.italica.rai.it/principali/lingua/bruni/mappe/flash/regionalok.htm ], [[:Image:Dialetti corsi.gif]]) and the others (logudorese, nuorese, aborense etc.) are variants of Sardinian lang. The UNESCO report ( http://www.helsinki.fi/%7Etasalmin/europe_report.html#GSardinian) is a very good source when dealing with the preservation of endangered languages, but it's hardly authoritative aboutphilological-linguistical issues.... The fact that a language's distinctive trait should not be traced exclusively to a specific heritage of literary works is one of the founding tenets of linguistics; on the contrary, these distinctive traits are developed through the comparison of syntax and morphology, and especially by studying phonological transformations.
The philologists (whose works I have quoted in the references) have picked up such common "distinctive traits", identifying one big language group called "Sardo" (Sardinian). These results are not some individual's original research; they are a respected linguistics thesis with a proven track record, accepted by most experts in the field.
It is true that the issues on languages spoken in Italy are among most complex to be found in this field; it is somewhat understandable that the Lancom is faced with great difficulties in handling them.
Nick
2007/9/10, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com:
Correct, you analysis is closest to the reality.
The problem is that Sardinian is the "polished" language. Sassarese, Campidanese, Logudorese and Campidanese are dialects or spoken languages or "vulgari eloquentiae" as Dante Alighieri could say.
Dante Alighieri in XIII century understood the difference and he said that a "vulgari eloquentia" to become a "literary" language must be: noble, aulic, courtier and distinguished. It not sufficient to have a spoken language or a literature (in this case we ares closer to the dialect than a language), but a dialect must be used in politic, courts of justice, litterature and so on (the difference of registries) to be a language.
For many centuries in Italy (for example) it has been discussed if the Italian language would be a super-language or a "polished" dialect. After discussions and discussions and discussions poetries and literary men has chosen a "polished" dialect because there was not a politic unity to impose a super-language.
This is what happened in the past or what happens in present days: or a dialect is stronger than other and it becomes a "polished" dialect with difference of registries and it is used in politic, justice, literature and media or a country impose a super-language mixing different
dialects.
Sardinia is following the second one, it is a mix of Logudorese and Campidanese because they have got a literature and they are more widespread than other two.
Ilario
Wikimedia CH board member Wikimedia Italy member
Aphaia wrote:
It sounds like a relation between Indonesian language (artificial, but official language of Indonesia) and native languages spoken in that state (Javanese, Sundanese etc etc). So it can be "official" and written language but not spoken. At least now.
Since it is highly political, and not genuinely linguistics, I think we need to establish a general consensus toward the issue: if a certain local community or even limited to the government tries to standardize their language in an official but artificial manner, and they have no real speaker yet, we accept such language as part of our project. I am not sure if there is a general consensus to support such experimental activities on Wikimedia community, though, being aware we know some successful cases in the history.
On 9/10/07, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
I agree, but I have said that in Italy this situation is "normal".
The
"Limba Sarda Comune" (translation is "Sardinian common language") is not a spoken language.
Some "collections" of languages has invented a superlanguage to write official documents. The "Limba Sarda Comune" is similar to the
Romansh
as "status". It has been invented (as Romansh) as official language
of
a Region:
"Recentemente (2006), La Regione Autonoma della Sardegna ha individuato una varietà scritta mediana del sardo, denominata Limba Sarda Comuna (LSC) da usare nei suoi documenti ufficiali in uscita, con carattere quindi di coufficialità. La LSC si propone come varietà intermedia tra le due varietà di sardo letterario già esistenti (Campidanese e Logudorese)."
The Limba Sarda is a superlanguage, created by the "Regione Autonoma of Sardinia" combining Campidanese and Logudorese (two of for sardinian dialects, but the more diffused) and it is used in official documents. This is the first step to create a language: from dialect to enrichment of registries.
See here:
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Lingue_di_Sardegna_mod.gif
the orange parts cover Campidanese and Logudorese.
The Gallurese is the third sardinian dialect closest to Corse Language, the Sassarese (spoken in a small part of Sardinia) is the fourth dialect in middle of Limba Sarda and Corse Language.
You understand that is crazy to have a wikipedia in a dialect that
has
not a grammar and not a dictionary well defined (Wikipedia is written and not spoken). Probably the Sardinia Region has had the some
problem
and for this reason has invented a "written" language.
Ilario
On 9/10/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What you write is completely beside the point. At issue is Sardinian
and
Sassarese not Romansh or Lombard. As far as the language committee
is
concerned, there are four Sardinian languages and none of them is
the
Limba
Sarda Comune.
We are quite adamant that a language needs recognition as such.
There
are
many issues with regard to this kind of recognition but the most
relevant
part is that it is a process that takes time and involves many
experts. It
takes so much time because the standard organisations do their best
to
get
it right. Where you describe dialects within a languages, it is not
specific
to Italian languages. The issue of some people trying to come to a
"unified"
language is not unique to Sardinia either.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9/10/07, Ilario Valdelli valdelli@gmail.com wrote:
Sardinian is a collection of different dialects spoken in Sardinia.
The environment is similar to Romansh (which is a collection of different languages as Surmiran, Sursilvan etc.) with the
difference
that the super-language Romansh is officially recognized and has
got
a
grammar and a dictionary.
The problem is generated because it's not clear what is language
and
what is dialect.
Using dialect in some environment like Europa you could have differences between two closest town. The nuances are very strong
and
the language is not stable (there differences during the years and influences).
The Lumbard (lmo.wikipedia.org) for example has got hundred
different
dialects and not a superlanguage officially recognized, and two different speakers of two lumbard dialect are not completely understandable each other.
Ilario
On 9/10/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
> There is a Wikipedia in the Sardinian > languagehttp://sc.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A0gina_printzipale. > It uses the sc ISO-639-1 code. What was known as Sardinian became
srd in
> the
> ISO-639-2. In the ISO-639-3 it was recognised as a > macrolanguagehttp://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M; > practically what was called Sardinian was split into four > languageshttp://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=srd > . > > The Italian government has officially recognised the Sardinian
language
> or
> the "Limba Sarda Comune". This is in essence a constructed
language
as
> it
> tries to make one language out of the four "dialects". One of the > effects
> has been that some people prevent others from writing in one of
the
four
> languages on the sc.wikpedia. > > The language committee of the Wikimedia Foundation has a request
to
> approve
> a new language; one of the Sardinian languages, Sassarese with ISO
code
> sdc.
> There are two problems to deal with: > > - The "Limba Sarda Comune" is not recognised as a language > - The proponents of the "Limba Sarda Comune" reserve the > sc.wikipediafor their language > > This issue is political. The first thing that I understand when
you
go
> to
> the official website http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasarda/
is
the
> notion of identity and indeed, to create one Sardinian identity it
would
> be
> instrumental to have a unifying language. However, the map of the > Sardinian
> languages <
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lingue_di_Sardegna_mod.gif%3E
> is
> clear, the island is divided in four. > > Given that the language committee has as one of its rules that
political
> arguments are not accepted, there are a few conclusions that we
should
> make.
> 1. Sassarese can have a conditional approval > 2. We urge the proponents of the Limba Sarda Comune to ask for
the
> recognition of this newly constructed language from ISO. > > I have had a chat with Debbie > Garside< > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_board#Debbie_Garside
about
> all this, and I understand that it is necessary to apply for an > ISO-639-3 code before an IANA language code is likely to be
approved. At
> least fifty published works in the Limba Sarda Comune will be
required.
> Thanks, > GerardM > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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