Hi John,
Thanks for highlighting this point. The gender neutral policies we are putting in place simply ensure that our policy, guidelines and help pages use gender neutral language where reasonable to do so. These policies do not apply to what our users write on discussion pages when referring to themselves. So, nobody is intending to start messing with how users address other users... within the limits of our civility policies of course! :-)
A point raised earlier is that it would be great for us to start thinking about whether the MediaWiki software should be improved to allow users to define their preferred pronoun, so when our systems leave automated messages, they are written to the user's preference, including non-binary terms (like 'hen' in Swedish) rather than "unspecified". This has been discussed, see https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T29744 as an example, but would probably need a larger community consensus, in fact a local consensus in each language, to move forward.
Thanks, Fae Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT
On 7 April 2017 at 10:27, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
The focus should not be what some users want to call other users, but on what users want to call themselves.
" I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still."
Then I think you should reconsider. Users will leave if you start messing with how they address other users.
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 April 2017 at 06:39, Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se wrote: ...
So when it comes to how we use them in documents related to WIkipedia,
is to
not use any of them. It is a little bit more complicated but it is quite possible. "The person who takes a photo should" etc
And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
(if
it ever will be)
Anders
Thanks for the 'hen' example. The new policy on Wikimedia Commons[1] for gender neutral language has precisely the Swedish Wikipedia working solution as the best solution, i.e. to avoid unnecessary gendered pronouns where /reasonable/. For policies in English at least, that actually turns out to be almost all the time.
It sounds like capturing what you currently do, can easily become your local gender neutral policy. It may not be perfect, but it would be a focus for discussion and by having these visible steps to attempt to address the issue, those most affected will feel acknowledged rather than dismissed.
Many of us have been contributing to the Wikimedia Foundation's strategy consultation, thinking of what our projects might become in 15 years. When you look that far ahead, it seems possible to plan for these changes happening, including seeing a few "leftist/feminist" possibilities like the Swedish 'hen' becoming mainstream.
When I was a teenager, the word "gay" for a homosexual went from a gay community word to mainstream on the television, something I remember my Mother being critical about, "it used to be such a nice happy word before this", not a good environment to come out as gay! A decade later the more acceptable and correct word "transgender" gradually replaced our usage of "transexual" and right now "genderqueer" is becoming a popular word to apply, it's even on Wikidata :-). However, in a more connected world, neologisms appear and become accepted faster, and 15 years feels like a long view for these changes.
Seeing /some/ of our mainstream projects taking action to adopt gender neutral terms, even if only at policy level, will encourage other websites to do the same. Rather than a political act, I see continuing to talk about it, and not giving up on trying to adapt and improve our approach where reasonable to do so, simply a way of striving to our goal of feeling like a welcome environment for everyone to read and everyone to edit. I cannot accept the status quo where some minorities feel excluded by our systems and policies, but I don't have to, as we are not standing still. :-)
Links:
neutral_language
Thanks Fae