Hoi, When you are not answerable for the mails you send, I might agree. I do not put words in your mouth, you were quite capable of doing that yourself. Thanks, GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 22:02, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Gerard, My notion of community depends on context. The context of this thread was not defined by me, so why do you not address your question to the person who brought it up? (Benjamin) Please refrain from telling me what I accept or do not accept, I am aware of my own thoughts and opinions and find your attempts to define my opinions offensive, as you are necessarily ignorant of what I have not stated. It is entirely obvious that the WMF is not a democracy, I have never claimed that they were, or even that they should be. The WMF has had mixed success in its endeavours. Some things they do well. Communicating with English Wikipedia on some aspects of trust and safety, policy and software changes is a thing they have not done well. This is my opinion. Yours may differ. I will give your opinion the consideration it deserves when it is explained logically, politely, and referring to verifiable facts. The farcical state of some elected governments and the irresponsibility of the elected is extremely familiar to me, as I live in a state where the elected government has continuously failed to deliver on their promises and on the laws they make (Not the USA, by the way, other countries also have embarrassing elected officials). That does not relieve other elected bodies or persons of their responsibilities. Being appointed to a position also does not relieve a person of their responsibility to do due diligence in governing the institution they gave been appointed to govern. Failure to take known risks into account is negligence, wherever a person is given the responsibility to direct an organisation following a constitution which requires them to do so. Boards are usually elected and appointed to take the responsibility to govern with due diligence and to avoid where possible damaging the organisation. I have reasonable confidence that the board will do its job. I do not have confidence in the ability of some of the working groups to come up with workable solutions to the various problems of the various projects. There is a need for change, but the need is for carefully considered change that does not unduly damage the projects, not a mixed bag of measures which includes poorly considered and poorly articulated recommendations that have been put together by people who do not appear to wish to communicate with those who will be affected by their recommendations. Here are some friendly suggestions: Please read my words carefully and try to understand my points, and refrain from assigning motives and opinions to me if I have not claimed them for myself, or when they are based on the words of other people. Make sure you are addressing the relevant person. Ask for clarification if you need it. Do not put words into my mouth. Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: 24 August 2019 20:10 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!
Hoi, Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the electorate has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are not beholden to you nor me.
"We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that our projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and when.
Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your opinion nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that needs an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is best to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change, consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines of how we could improve upon them. Thanks GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Gerard, It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume it is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and some clarification would be welcome. English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but the WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
recommendations
of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or more effective. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!
Hoi, May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises
made.
In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then as it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to a point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
environment,
it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the well fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
taken,
fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that great as an abstraction. Thanks, GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Benjamin, Has the board or any member of the board made any statement suggesting that the board might overrule the community in this matter? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!
It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community
in
such a massive way.
On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group position at this point in time.
J
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
wrote:
James
Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
Board's
position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
Jeff
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com
wrote:
I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
James
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Paulo, > > You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
community
> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall
that
just
> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed > the opinion > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&am...
> over > a much less dramatic change. > >> All of this is going to require change, change that might not be > acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part
of
this
> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
take a
> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you
have
to
> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next
step
when > needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you
will
> return when the time is right. > > I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today. > > Jeff > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta < > paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote: > >> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the
Wikimedia
>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the
WGs
8and >> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December. >> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
only
be >> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in
the
>> process of implementation. >> >> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the > Wikimedia >> community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass
all
the >> way till implementation phase. >> >> Paulo >> >> Nicole Ebber nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de escreveu no dia quinta, >> 22/08/2019 >> à(s) 11:58: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing
so
much >>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
building
> our >>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
clarifications.
>>> >>> DRAFTS >>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
shared
> are >>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but > working >>> documents that are currently being refined by the working
groups.
Some >>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development, >>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the
next
few >>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give > everyone a >>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into > multiple >>> progress levels. >>> >>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities
and
>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A > recommendation >> to >>> change the existing license model, for example, will not just go > through >> a >>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into
the
>> reasoning >>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could
be
> ways >> to >>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
look
> into >>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in
the
>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead > of >>> rushing to a quick fix. >>> >>> INTEGRATION >>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
Wikimania
and >> via >>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next > iteration >> of >>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a
basis
for
>>> harmonization across working groups. >>> >>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels.
Some
of
> it >>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific
principles
or
>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or > already >>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be >> considered >>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic
input
> will >>> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation. >>> >>> TIMELINE >>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and
the
>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants
could
>> read >>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we
will
do
>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
multiple
>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
direction
of >> the >>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are
already
> working >>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare
for
>>> harmonization. >>> >>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring > 3 >>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to
develop a
>> more >>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by >>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We
have
> also >>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa >>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
Deutschland)
> to >>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their
work
> and >>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
listeners
> and >>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
consequences
on >> the >>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as the >>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the >>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can > anticipate >>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for >>> implementation. >>> >>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
present
> them >> to >>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the legal >>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while
others
> will >>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and structures >> for >>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional
public
>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be
discussed
> and >>> owned across the movement. >>> >>> WORKING GROUPS >>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the
process
that >>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures
is
owned >> by >>> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected
by
a
>>> steering committee and the groups were established in July
2019.[2]
> Group >>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from different >>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and
organized
> groups, >>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia > Foundation >>> staff and board. >>> >>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being > volunteers, >> or >>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft >>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
form,
storm >> and >>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across
time
>> zones, >>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the substance >> and >>> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to tackle >> for >>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The development >> of >>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside
from
many >>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings – > included >>> incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It
is
> only >> to >>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
tangible
> in >>> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to build >> our >>> future together. >>> >>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
rather
> than >>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
contribute
in
>> good >>> faith, and in a constructive way. >>> >>> Let me know if you have further questions. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Nicole >>> >>> [1] >>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_...
>>> [2] >>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_...
>>> >>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <
ymbalt@gmail.com>
> wrote: >>> >>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has
been
>> pointed >>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning) >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Yaroslav >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke < geoffey.hawke@gmail.com >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett < >>> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke < > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the >>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF >>>>>> >>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step; the >> one >>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider >>> Wikimedia >>>>>> community. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That step is not mentioned at >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequent...
>>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicole Ebber >>> Adviser International Relations >>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy >>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
Berlin
>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 >>> https://wikimedia.de >>> >>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der >> Menschheit >>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei! >>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de >>> >>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien
Wissens
e.
V. >>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg
>> unter >>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt
für >>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
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