I feel that Denny's decision to resign makes sense, and in no way does
this
decision put a cloud over his continued involvement in our community.
Pine, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you are doing a very common mistake in the Wikimedia world: you are not taking into account people's emotions. Making an hard decision always takes its toll, and it's all but granted that someone wants to stay in the same community that lacked trust in him and stressed him out for weeks. I personally trusted him, I felt the pain in his messages to this list in the last months, and I'm sad he has to leave from what I thought was an important decisive role.
Aubrey
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Brill,
Speaking generally (meaning, not in regard to the specific situation of Denny), conflict of interest issues do happen on a regular basis. In my experience, we also generally handle them well.
Having numerous business relationships and interests is common in the business world. Many times when there is a conflict of interest issue, it's sufficient to recuse from particular discussions. Sometimes, the best course of action is to resign from one role or another.
Regarding Denny's situation specifically, after leaving the WMF board, he may provide valuable input and may in some ways be more effective because he will have stepped away from numerous COI issues.
I feel that Denny's decision to resign makes sense, and in no way does this decision put a cloud over his continued involvement in our community.
There are many problems in the Wikimedia universe, but I think that our COI policies are generally sound.
Pine
On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
I find this issue of Conflict of Interest exceedingly problematic.
Almost every person working and living today will have a conflict of interest somehow, especially as one becomes a contributor to any of the Wikimedia projects, gets to know people, tries to organize events or promote the value of Wikipedia, Wikimedia, etc. Or if you work in any
field
that specializes in anything online or technical. It is an impossible situation.
I think that Wikimedia deals with this very badly -- and obviously at
great
personal cost to talented, giving people. I am sorry.
And to the bigger problem: Wikimedia loses a smart person who has loads
of
ideas and expertise -- and is a contributor to Wikidata (one of the best
&
most exciting projects to be visited upon Wikimedia) because of this
arcane
and quite frankly needing to be re-evaluated rule? I see this as one of
the
many problems of Wikimedia.
EVERYONE has conflict of interest. We need the smartest and brightest
minds
out there to contribute whatever they willingly can and will do on a volunteer basis. How can they not have connections to the real world as well as to online? Do we expect volunteers to be in their bunkers somewhere, siloed from the world, that these clean folks are the ones to move Wikimedia forward? It's laughable.
One thing Wikimedia seems to do quite well is torture people who want to contribute by rules and policies that I think, quite frankly, are unworkable.
Requiring some sort of absolute clean Conflict of Interest is an
impossible
ideal. It is also obviously hurting the community.
There is much change happening. I think it's an opportunity for newbies such as myself as well as folks with longer views to make things better.
Or
these mistakes will continue to plague the Wikimedia community -- and we will all lose out.
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle
On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, Denny I am sorry to have lost a friend who is on the board but I am
happy
to welcome back a friend who can now express his ideas, his notions,
his
opposition, his point of view. Yes you work for Google. For me it means that you are again in an unique position to be an ambassador for both Google and WMF in either domain.
You may have gained friends while on the board, the one sad thing is
that
it came at a huge cost to you personally. Nevermind what you do, I
trust
you to do well. Thanks, Gerard
On 8 April 2016 at 20:17, Denny Vrandecic dvrandecic@wikimedia.org wrote:
I exchanged a walk on part in the war for a lead role in the cage.
I find myself tied and limited in my actions and projects. In order
to
avoid the perception or potential for Conflict of Interests I have to
act
extremely carefully in far too many parts of my life. Instead of
being
able
to pursue my projects or some projects at work - which I think would
align
very well with our mission - I found myself trapped between too many constraints. I feel like I cannot offer my thoughts and my
considerations
openly, since they might easily be perceived as expressions of
interests
regarding my previous work, regarding my friends, regarding my
current
employment.
This hit home strongly during the FDC deliberations, where I had to
deal
with the situation of people deliberating a proposal written by my
Best
Man, around a project that has consumed the best part of the previous decade of my life. Obviously, I explained the conflicts in this case,
and
refrained from participating in the discussion, as agreed with the
FDC.
This hit home every time there was a topic that might be perceived
as a
potential conflict of interest between Wikimedia and my employer, and
even
though I might have been in a unique position to provide insight, I
had
to
refrain from doing so in order not to exert influence.
There were constant and continuous attacks against me, as being
merely
Google’s mole on the Board, even of the election being bought by
Google.
I
would not have minded these attacks so much - if I would have had the feeling that my input to the Board, based on my skills and
experiences,
would have been particularly valuable, or if I would have had the
feeling
of getting anything done while being on the Board. As it is, neither
was
the case.
I discussed with Jan-Bart, then chair, what is and what is not
appropriate
to pursue as a member of the Board. I understood and followed his
advice,
but it was frustrating. It was infuriatingly limiting.
As some of you might know, Wikidata was for me just one step towards
my
actual goal, a fully multilingual Wikipedia. I hoped that as a
Trustee
I
could pursue that goal, but when even writing a comment on a bug in Phabricator has to be considered under the aspect that it will be
read
as
"it is a Board-member writing that comment" and/or “It’s a Googler
writing
that comment”, I don’t see how I could effectively pursue such a
goal.
It was at Wikimania 2006 in Boston, when Markus Krötzsch and I had
lunch
with Dan Connolly, a co-editor of the early HTML specs. Dan gave me
an
advise that still rings with me - to do the things worth doing that
only
you can do. This set me, back then, on a path that eventually lead to
the
creation of Wikidata - which, before then, wasn't something I wanted
to
do
myself. I used to think that merely suggesting it would be enough -
someone
will eventually do it, I don’t have to. There’s plenty of committed
and
smart people at the Foundation, they’ll make it happen. Heck, Erik
was
back
then a supporter of the plan (he was the one to secure the domain wikidata.org), and he was deputy director. Things were bound to
happen
anyway. But that is not what happened. I eventually, half a decade
later,
realized that if I do not do it, it simply won't happen, at least not
in
a
reasonable timeframe.
And as said, Wikidata was just one step on the way. But right now I
cannot
take the next steps. Anything that I would do or propose or suggest
will
be
regarded through the lense of my current positions. To be fair, I do
see
that I should not be both the one suggesting changes, and the one
deciding
on them. I understand now that I could not have suggested Wikidata
as a
member of the Board. It takes an independent Board to evaluate such proposal and its virtues and decide on them.
I want to send a few thank yous, in particular to the teams at the Wikimedia Foundation and at Google who helped me steer clear of
actual
conflicts of interests. They were wonderful, and extremely helpful.
It
bears a certain irony that both organizations had strong measures
against
exactly the kind of things that I have been regularly accused of.
I only see three ways to stay clear from a perceived or potential
Conflict
of Interest: to lay still and do nothing, to remove the source of the Conflict, or to step away from the position of power. Since the first option is unsatisfying, the second option unavailable, only the third option remains.
So I have decided to resign from the Board of Trustees.
It was not an easy decision, and certainly not a step made any easier
by
the events in the last few months. I understand that I will
disappoint
many
of the people who voted for me, and I want to apologize: I am sorry, honestly sorry, but I don’t see that it is me the Board needs now, or
that
the movement needs me in that position. What I learned is that the
profile
that allows someone to win an election is not the profile that makes
an
effective Trustee.
But be warned that you will continue to hear from me, after a
wikibreak.
Expect crazy ideas, project proposals, and requests to fund and
implement
them. I will return to a more active role within the movement. I will
be,
again, free to work on things that are worth doing and that only I
can
do.
I think that in that role I can be more effective and more valuable
to
the
movement, the Foundation, and for our mission.
Be bold, Denny _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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