The sincerity and quality of communication in this thread, and is deep-linked citations, made me grin in an outrageous week. You are all wonderful.
On the original subject: Interactives are increasingly satisfying to use; hats off to those involved. No surprise they inspired this shaded love-fest, and thanks for the active communication.
And, as there are few threads that cannot be improved with some enthusiastic singing: Perhaps each new reply can contribute to a karaoke-chain.. . SJ
On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 12:52 AM, Anna Stillwell astillwell@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com
wrote:
Anna,
I've now read what you quoted for a third time, and can confirm I did understand, and agree with, what you said. I'm sorry my summary was inadequate, and may have made it seem otherwise.
As for planning, I am not making assumptions, but perhaps interpreting differently from you. I'm happy to defer to Pine on the details; their recent message captures the gist of what I intended.
I can't give a solid estimate of the "half-life," but I do not think the enthusiasm I've seen (and the metrics I cited in my initial message on
this
thread) constitute a passing crush. I do think a "pause" that
necessitates
addressing uncertainty when discussing popular features can have a significant impact, and therefore should be minimized to whatever
degree is
attainable. I could be wrong, but that's my belief.
Got it. (I add color so I can see. I think I need better glasses. Sad!).
As for the request for more time, I guess I'm just not sure what to make of it. I make no demands, and I'm not sure I've heard Pine, James, DJ,
or
anybody in this thread make demands. Is there somebody with standing to grant such a request? I've heard it, and it makes sense. It's
worthwhile to
know that the team needs more time, and plans to share more on a scale
that
sounds like days-to-weeks. But if there's something specific being
asked of
me (or others on this list), I'm not clear on what it is.
I was just asking whether you thought it was reasonable to give them the time that they asked for. It wasn't a governance question, or a
discussion
about authority. I was just asking if those who commented, who all seemed to have legitimate concerns, were willing to have the team get back to
them
with any answers that they could fairly, justly, respectfully and legally provide, but more likely they would talk about the future work.
In my mind I've been clear and consistent: "Hey, do you guys think it is reasonable to give these guys some time?" But it seems like I've not made this point clear. Would singing it at karaoke help?
I'd be happy to chat if you come back to it at the end of Q3, if you'd like.
Thanks. I'll reach out.
-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
On 01/25/2017 06:38 PM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Anna,
Pete,
Your points are valid and well taken. If I may summarize what I think I
heard, it's basically: "Getting things right can be hard, and if full preparations weren't made ahead of time, thorough answers may not be readily available. Be compassionate/patient." Is that about right?
I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I mean. Thanks.
No, I didn’t say getting things right can be hard. I said, “This communication thing is hard, especially when people are involved. Sometimes there are laws that constrain what we say. Sometimes we don’t know
whether
we are right yet and we need a further unpacking of the facts. The
truth
is that there can be a whole host of reasons for partial communication
that
aren’t related to competence or the intent to deceive.”
As for the preparations, it seems that a lot of assumptions are being made. As for thorough answers, some might already be known and others known
once
more planning is completed. However, it could be that the explanations
you
want are not legal to share. There are many issues where employment law and worker protections are crystal clear, as they should be.
As for compassion, I don’t require it. That seems like extra to me. I usually prefer just paying attention, but that’s my personal choice.
The team asked for some time. I wondered if that would be a reasonable request to grant them.
If so, I agree in principle and in spirit, but I think the point is in
tension with another one:
Community and public enthusiasm for software can be a rare and
important
thing. The conditions that make it grow, shrink, or sustain are
complex,
and largely beyond the influence of a handful of mailing list participants. The recent outputs of the Interactive Team have generated enthusiasm
in a
number of venues, and many on this list (both volunteers and staff)
would
like to see it grow or sustain, and perhaps throw a little weight
behind
an effort to make it grow or sustain.
Good points. I mean that. Glad to hear of these recent outputs
generate
excitement. I’m personally also getting quite excited about ORES https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Objective_Revision_Evaluation_Service and
what’s going on with the Community Tech Wish List, Labs, and New
Readers.
But I also get that you want to be clear: you'd like to see the interactive team’s work grow or sustain. Makes sense.
The only thing I heard is that the team said that they needed to pause, have a bit of time, and get back to everybody. “The team's aim during
this
period is to get its work to a stable and maintainable state.”
But that enthusiasm has a half-life. What is possible today may not be
possible next week or next month. The zeitgeist may have evolved or
moved
on by then.
I'm not in disagreement with your main point about enthusiasm for
software. I think it's a very good one. Enthusiasm with a half life of a week, however, sounds more like a passing crush. Nevertheless, your point
still
stands.
-Pete
-- [[User:Peteforsyth]]
/a
[[User:Annaproject]]
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Anna Stillwell <
astillwell@wikimedia.org
wrote:
You make substantive points, Tim. Thank you.
"An employee should not experience their time off as a period where
his
[her/they] work load is just temporarily buffered until his
[her/they]
return, but where colleagues will step in and take care of business."
I take this point seriously and don't wish you to think otherwise. In theory, I absolutely agree. In practice, sometimes we all face
constraints.
There are roughly 300 of us (order of magnitude). Every now and then,
there
are not enough of us to go around on everything on a timeline that
meets
the legitimate need that you present here. We'll continue to work on
this.
But, to clarify, no one ever said it was a "useful practice" nor did
anyone
suggest that it was generalized across the org.
What I was wondering about in my previous email and now reiterating
in
this
one too, are people willing to grant their request: a bit of time and
allow
for one person to return to work?
Does that seem like a way to move forward?
Warmly, /a
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Tim Landscheidt < tim@tim-landscheidt.de
wrote:
Anna Stillwell astillwell@wikimedia.org wrote:
[…] > I also hear that the pause on the interactive work is temporary.
I’ve
> heard
> them request time. I am comfortable granting that request, but no
one
> is
required to agree with me. They’ve also said that the person with
the
> most
> information is on vacation. As someone who has seen employees go > through
considerable stress in the last years, the entire executive team is > working
> to establish some cultural standards around supporting vacations.
We
> want
people here to feel comfortable taking proper vacations and
sometimes
> that
> can even need to happen in a crisis. People often plan their > vacations
well
> in advance and may not know that something tricky will come up.
Just
> so
you
> understand one bias I bring to this conversation. > […] > I concur with DJ in his initial mail that this is not a use- ful practice, and I doubt very much that it relieves employ- ees' stress. It conveys the organizational expectation that employees are SPOFs without any backup. An employee should not experience their time off as a period where his work load is just temporarily buffered until his return, but where colleagues will step in and take care of business. Especially such a major decision like "pausing" a team should not depend on the inner thoughts of one employee, but be backed and explainable by others.
Tim
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