We are not "working for WMF for free". We are actually not working for WMF at all. This is a completely false premise for any discussion.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:39 PM Jeff Hawke geoffey.hawke@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard
A good point. The "community" in one sense is simply the collection of all those people who happen over any given time period to be working for the WMF for free. In another sense, it is the structures and cultures found on the various projects. I think my question could best have been phrased in terms of the first meaning -- that is, does the WMF Board expect that after these recommendations are enacted, and, as we may reasonably predict, a large proportion of the current volunteers cease their invlvement, that there will be a sufficient number of continuing and new volunteers to sustain the projects in the way the WMF desires. It seems odd that the Board would not have even begun to consider this question, but it is of course for them and not for us to decide.
Jeff
On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:10 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the
electorate
has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are not beholden to you nor me.
"We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that
our
projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and when.
Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your
opinion
nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that
needs
an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is
best
to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change, consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines
of
how we could improve upon them. Thanks GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Gerard, It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume
it
is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and
some
clarification would be welcome. English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but
the
WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
recommendations
of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or
more
effective. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!
Hoi, May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises
made.
In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then
as
it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to
a
point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
environment,
it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the
well
fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
taken,
fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that
great
as an abstraction. Thanks, GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Benjamin, Has the board or any member of the board made any statement
suggesting
that the board might overrule the community in this matter? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations
are
here!
It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the
community
in
such a massive way.
On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group position at this point in time.
J
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <
geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
wrote:
James
Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
Board's
position on whether it is prepared to see the final
Recommendations
implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
Jeff
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com
wrote:
> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position. > > James > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
geoffey.hawke@gmail.com>
> wrote: > >> Paulo, >> >> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
community
>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall
that
just >> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, > expressed >> the opinion >> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&am...
>> over >> a much less dramatic change. >> >>> All of this is going to require change, change that might not
be
>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part
of
this >> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide
to
take a >> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so,
you
have
to >> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that
next
step
> when >> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that
you
will
>> return when the time is right. >> >> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today. >> >> Jeff >> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta < >> paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the
Wikimedia
>>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the
WGs
> 8and >>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around > December. >>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community
will
only > be >>> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already
in
the
>>> process of implementation. >>> >>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if
the
>> Wikimedia >>> community does not approve some of the recommendations that
pass
all
> the >>> way till implementation phase. >>> >>> Paulo >>> >>> Nicole Ebber nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de escreveu no dia
quinta,
>>> 22/08/2019 >>> à(s) 11:58: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great
seeing
so
> much >>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building >> our >>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications. >>>> >>>> DRAFTS >>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared >> are >>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete,
but
>> working >>>> documents that are currently being refined by the working
groups.
> Some >>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further > development, >>>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the
next
> few >>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give >> everyone a >>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight
into
>> multiple >>>> progress levels. >>>> >>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values,
priorities
and
>>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A >> recommendation >>> to >>>> change the existing license model, for example, will not just
go
>> through >>> a >>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into
the
>>> reasoning >>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what
could
be
>> ways >>> to >>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest
to
look >> into >>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included
in
the >>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, > instead >> of >>>> rushing to a quick fix. >>>> >>>> INTEGRATION >>>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
Wikimania
> and >>> via >>>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next >> iteration >>> of >>>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a
basis
for >>>> harmonization across working groups. >>>> >>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels.
Some
of >> it >>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific
principles
or >>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side
or
>> already >>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to
be
>>> considered >>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input >> will >>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation. >>>> >>>> TIMELINE >>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible
and
the
>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania
participants
could >>> read >>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we
will
do >>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
multiple
>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction > of >>> the >>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are
already
>> working >>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare
for
>>>> harmonization. >>>> >>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we
will
> bring >> 3 >>>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a >>> more >>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported
by
>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We
have
>> also >>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie > D’Costa >>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland) >> to >>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from
their
work >> and >>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active listeners >> and >>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and consequences > on >>> the >>>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as
the
>>>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the >>>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can >> anticipate >>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan
for
>>>> implementation. >>>> >>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
present
>> them >>> to >>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need
the
> legal >>>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while others >> will >>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and > structures >>> for >>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional public >>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be discussed >> and >>>> owned across the movement. >>>> >>>> WORKING GROUPS >>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the
process
> that >>>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures
is
> owned >>> by >>>> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected
by
a
>>>> steering committee and the groups were established in July
2019.[2]
>> Group >>>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from > different >>>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and
organized
>> groups, >>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia >> Foundation >>>> staff and board. >>>> >>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being >> volunteers, >>> or >>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the
draft
>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
form,
> storm >>> and >>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together
across
time >>> zones, >>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the > substance >>> and >>>> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions
to
> tackle >>> for >>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The > development >>> of >>>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside
from
> many >>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings
–
>> included >>>> incorporating community conversations and external expertise.
It
is
>> only >>> to >>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something tangible >> in >>>> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve
to
> build >>> our >>>> future together. >>>> >>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
rather
>> than >>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
contribute
in >>> good >>>> faith, and in a constructive way. >>>> >>>> Let me know if you have further questions. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Nicole >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_...
>>>> [2] >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_...
>>>> >>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <
ymbalt@gmail.com>
>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has
been
>>> pointed >>>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Yaroslav >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke < > geoffey.hawke@gmail.com >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett < >>>> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke < >> geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the >>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate
step;
> the >>> one >>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the
wider
>>>> Wikimedia >>>>>>> community. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That step is not mentioned at >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequent...
>>>>>> ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nicole Ebber >>>> Adviser International Relations >>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy >>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
Berlin
>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 >>>> https://wikimedia.de >>>> >>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen
der
>>> Menschheit >>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei! >>>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de >>>> >>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien
Wissens
e. > V. >>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg >>> unter >>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt
> für >>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe