Sad memories of Orkut, Panoramio, and all the unvaluable repositories of online knowledge that have been completely destroyed in the recent past, because they were doomed as uncompetitive by big corporations as Google. I seriously hope we don't go that way. 😟
Paulo
Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net escreveu no dia quinta, 18/04/2019 Ã (s) 09:34:
Our brand is already on it in these cases, and yes it would be sending a message - "We want you to risk your time and effort on our projects but we may later decide to discard everything you worked for" Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Pryor-Summers Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:19 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]
Peter
Putting your brand on a project that is visibly failing also sends out a message, to the world at large. Is that a message you want to broadcast?
JPS
On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:32 PM Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Abandoning a project and shutting it down sends a message to all volunteers that their work could be similarly abandoned and lost one day. Is that a message we want to broadcast? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ziko van Dijk Sent: 17 April 2019 00:46 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system for our 2030 goals]
Hello, Some years ago, some volunteers have proposed a new Wikimedia wiki. It
did
not turn out as expected. That‘s okay, the movement should try out thing from time to time. But this wiki should not be seen as an eternal obligation to be kept. Kind regards Ziko
Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com schrieb am Di. 16. Apr. 2019 um 23:56:
Jennifer -- as you say, there is a contradiction here in the self-image
and
internal narrative of the projects and movement. A classic branding
issue
;)
- On the one hand, we lack clear, consistent language to talk about
topical
subprojects (what do you call 'the Current Events specialists on the
major
language Wikpiedias'? some obvious names have already been taken)
- On the other, for the few Names that we assign to Projects, we
overspecify what they mean ('Wikinews is original news reporting or synthesis, done on a wikinews.org site').
We propagate this confusion of identity to those outside the projects trying to understand them; which in turn leads to misunderstanding in
the
world at large, and fewer potential collaborators joining the projects: I was recently at a gathering of international fact-checkers.
They
all prized Wikipedia as a model for what rapid collective editing can accomplish; assumed wikinews and wikitribune were the best efforts to
date
of applying that to current events; and began an enthusiastic
discussion
about how to do it better. When I pointed out that Wikipedias did
exactly
what they were discussing, for the most popular news, this was
startling
and satisfying to them. However as there is no central cafe or village pump for current events editors, and what portals do exist are
impossible
to find for all but the most persistent, it is not obvious how to
engage
with them...
This is a challenge of naming + identity that really holds us back:
ways
for people to form groups, projects, message streams; and channel, advertise, amplify, polish them; use them for flash projects and coalescence, for awareness and thanks. We have tried many small steps
in
this direction but have never made groups or hashtags work as simple, functional tools of alignment.
SJ
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < jennifer.pryorsummers@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrew
It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies
that
make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH)
are a
poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand,
Wikipedia
is
a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem inconsistent to
me.
However, I conclude from what you're saying that the best way forward
is
to
fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia. Is that right?
JPS
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < jennifer.pryorsummers@gmail.com> wrote:
Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language)
Wikipedia
seems
to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent
with
its
encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason. Maybe the WMF
should
sort out the demarcation issues.
Jennifer,
This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade and the
vast
majority of the community has converged on the conclusion that
Wikinews
hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental
properties.
News is often described as "the best obtainable version of the
truth
given
the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing
direct
observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following policies
that
make
Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline reporting:
Wikipedia:NOR - no original research Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources Wikipedia:V - verifiability Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism
Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience this
mismatch
and
realize it is a poor fit.
However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we should
celebrate
the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that evolve
minute
to
minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the world as
we
know
it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of reality
–
the
Wikipedia article.
If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the origins of Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look: [1]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html
[2]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html
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