+1
On 10 November 2016 at 09:00, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there
is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in
the
past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
They
are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security
is
only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
only
concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion
and
put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
matter
that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do.
It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see
it
this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
failed
and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
about
the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA
that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi, > Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote: > > Hoi, >> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
gain
>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
Wikipedia
is
>> not >> the house hold name it is in the USA. >> >> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
matter.
>> They >> do. >> >> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum
of
all
>> knowledge with. >> >> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >> >> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
not
go
>> to >> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >> Switzerland >> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
what I
want
>> either. >> >> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
still
being
>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help
the
LBGT
>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >> Wikimedia >> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
heard.We
aim to
>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even
heard
of
us.
>> Thank, >> GerardM >> >> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >> list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: >> >> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that
I'm
>>> concerned >>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
about
those
>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
with
a
>>> poor >>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
our
>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >>> restrictive >>> restroom laws were passed for example... >>> >>> - Pax >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> Hoi, >>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>>>> Our >>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
"sharing in
>>>> the >>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
holiday
>>>> destination. >>>> Thanks, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
safety
>>>> >>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
specific
>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
imagine
>>>>> how such a thing could be true. >>>>> >>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Fae >>>>> >>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
safe.
All
>>>>>> the >>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>>> problematic >>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
picture
>>>>>> for >>>>>> me >>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
what
it
>>>>>> >>>>>> stands >>>>> >>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>>>> to >>>>>> South Africa. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>>>>
>>>>>
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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